Tom Sawyer

I just got a new puppya couple of weeks ago. In terms of training it, all the vets, humane society workers and websites I have seen have said specifically said that negative reinforcement techniques do not work well for training puppies. For instance, smacking her nose when she pees on the carpet is not an effective way to stop her from peeing on the carpet. They say that positive reinforcement is the only reliable way to train her.

Now, I have no intention of smacking her or anything like that, but I remember from psych courses in college that negative reinforcement is generally more effective than positive reinforcement. If I am remembering that correctly, then it means that all of these people I've been talking to about my dog are wrong.

My question is, are they correct that postive reinforcement works better for training dogs or do they just say that so that less people will be smacking their dogs and being nicer during the training because that's what they think will work? I have no problem with it being the second one, I just want to know if there's any validity to it.

Bumble Bee Tuna

Well, I'm in PSYC 1001 this semester, and we just did punishment a few weeks ago, and I distinctly remember being told that positive reinforcement is the most effective kind. What is ineffective punishment is coming home to a peed-on rug, bringing your puppy to it, sticking their face in it and punishing them. They won't understand what the punishment is for. Punishment will only be effective if it is immediate after the offense. A better technique is to take your dog outside for a very long time telling it some phrase such as 'do your business'. Have a dog treat in hand. Your dog will try a lot of stuff to get the treat but you won't give it away. Eventually, the dog gives up on the treat. Stay outside with it and wait for a long time. Eventually, it goes to the bathroom. Immediately shower it with praise and the treat (wait until it's finished! :P). That will be an effective means of behavior control. It should not take many episodes such as that one to teach the dog. Or at least, my Psych professor went over this very story in detail and said it worked for her dog.
Positive reinforcement is the most effective, though. (meaning, GIVE something GOOD. negative reinforcement is actually not what you describe (hitting). Negative reinforcement is TAKING AWAY something BAD. Positive punishment is GIVING something BAD. Negative punishment is TAKING AWAY something GOOD.)

-B

LeftCoast

To housebreak a dog "Crate Training" is the best, most reliable and humane method I know of.

In short, a dog will not defecate/elliminate where it sleeps, so the trick is to keep the dog in a dog carrier or something similar when you are not actively playing with it (especially at night). Immediately upon releasing the dog, take it outside and it will most likely immediately take care of "business". When it does, praise it and be excited about the praise. This will quickly make the dog associate praise with waiting to go until it is outside. We've used this on the last dog we had and some friends have as well with very good results.

Another trick is to train the dog to "go" on command. While it is defecating speak a code-word to the dog (obviously not one that you are likely to use in everyday conversation ) and you can train the dog to associate the code-word with defecation/elimination.

A good book we found on the subject was "The Art of Raising a Puppy" by the Monks of New Skete:
here - note, I don't know how to link to Amazon so the II gets a cut, if someone tells me how I'll modify the above link.

Marduk

Leftcoast & BBtuna are correct. Postitive reinforcement works, you are there, when the behavior you want occurs, to offer praise and reward. Often you are not arround when puppy does things you don't want it to do, too late for neg. reinfocement. also I've read that neg. reinforcement incourages aggression.

Albion

Yes, good book. So's their other one, "How to be your dog's best friend." I think they also have them available as videos. We got our dog from New Skete back in the mid-1980s and she was a wonderful dog.

http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/puppies/dg.html

Cofffee

I saw a show on TV called Good Dog where they discuss these types of dog training issues.

The problem with negative reinforicement was that the dog doesn't associate the bad behaviour with the punishment.... and instead it doesn't know why it got the punishment and so the dog just fears you more if you punish it (And thus will be less willing to follow commands to heel by your side.)

Dogs love conditioning and routine. I think if you associate good behaviours with rewards, they will learn and will be ever so happy about it.

As well, sometimes you have to change the dog's surroundings so that the dog can't do the bad behaviour (e.g. If the dog is still going in the house, you need to put newspapers indoors where the dog went and then show the dog the newspapers outside and then take away the newspapers from inside the house, so the dog can't find the indoor "spot" anymore)

Tom Sawyer

OK, it sounds like I just remembered my psych course wrong.

Thanks for all your responses

lisarea

I got my dog when he was probably about two years old. (They weren't sure, because they just found him walking down the street.)

He'd already been adopted once and returned for being untrainable. But I was in love, so that was OK. I got this book, largely because it most closely mirrors my own attitudes about dogs:

Smarter Than You Think

He has some pretty specific advice on exactly how to do house training, but to be honest, I played it by ear, based on my understanding of my dog. Sluggo is very very affectionate, and very eager to please. He honestly had no idea that he shouldn't crap on the floor. He'd apparently been crated quite a bit, and as such, didn't really consider the rest of the house his turf.

I know this sounds really weird, but when I brought him home, I took him on a tour of the house, showed him where the furniture was, where I was going to keep his bowls, where the yard was and what I thought was a good place to crap, etc. And when he had accidents, I'd just say, "GROSS, Dude!" and clean it up, expressing my distaste for it. Seriously. I think that the simple act of letting him know that I found this gross worked. I didn't hit him or even really yell at him, but he's not stupid. He knows he made that stuff on the floor, and he knows that it's making me gag, and he's a nice guy. He doesn't want to make me gag. He was fully housetrained inside a couple of weeks.

I don't buy that argument that they forget where the crap on the floor came from. Dogs read tons of information into excretions. That's why they spend so much time smelling it. They can gather all kinds of information about "pee-mail" that other dogs leave on lampposts and such. Of course they know that's their shit on the floor.

I've only adopted adult dogs so far, so I don't know how high you can really set the bar with a puppy, but in my experience, dogs live up to your expectations. If you treat them as intelligent beings, they act like it. I sound like a crazy person sometimes, having natural language conversations with my dog, but he listens, so I don't care.