Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
They were born under sin, and in a world like that - would have never amounted to anything good.

So it's OK for sinful people to have abortions, then, because otherwise their children would be born under sin and would never amount to anything good.

Thanks for being pro-choice, Magus. You rock.

Rational BAC

Have a question for Magus-----

-----even though he seems to be a late nighter and will take a while to get back to this.

But it does seem to be pertinant to this thread.

I am a Christian, though a very liberal cherry picker one.

Have never understood the concept of original sin. I do not feel personally sinful at all (at least not in any overwhelming sense---will admit I have made some mistakes in my life)

Where exactly in the Bible does this idea of original sin come from? And where in the Bible does the idea come from that Jesus died to relieve all sinners of their original sin?

Again --I am a cherry picker--so may just toss out your Biblical explanation of original sin and Christ's role in alleviating it. -------------------But I would still like to find out where in the Bible this very strange idea came from.

My personal impression was that all this original sin stuff was created by committee 100's of years after Christ to somewhat implausibly make the ressurection of Jesus conform with the so called "fall of Adam"

My personal view is that Jesus died---- not to save us from original sin, but to show us by His example that there is indeed an afterlife.

And it would help enormously also Magus if, besides showing passages in the Bible supporting the essence of Original Sin----if you would also show passages in the Bible showing the reasoning behind such a (for me personally) --- irrational concept.
--------------------------------------------------

PS----

There is also the concept of the Trinity --which I also comprehend not at all-------and think it was just another committee inspired concept 100's of years after the fact to make Christianity into a monotheisitic religion and not a tripartied one --but that is for a different thread

Rational BAC

Magus ----

--I consider myself a mostly rational person (although there is a very long debate going on about that one)

I am a cherry picker Christian in the sense that, if something in the Bible makes no rational sense at all to me, then I throw it out-- as a typical human screwup in trying to write down or define God's word' ----------I do not believe in the infallibility or literalness of the Bible. Just a human endeavor in my opinion to try and explain a real deity. ---but full of error.

Give me some good rational reasons in everyday words (with Biblical support) to believe in anything as seemingly absurd as original sin------------and I could buy it.

Will warn you Magus--nobody has done it yet.

Magus55

Nope, we aren't in a world of pure evil, and we don't have the right to decide who lives and dies. God knew those children's fate - you don't know the fate of any unborn child.

Stop twisting my words for your own agenda QoS - im not pro-choice.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
Nope, we aren't in a world of pure evil,

Neither were the children God murdered during the flood, unless you want to claim that Noah and his family were evil.

and we don't have the right to decide who lives and dies.

Why not? If we don't have the right to decide who lives and dies, should we ever go to war? Or should we ever have capital punishment? What about murder in self-defense?

God knew those children's fate - you don't know the fate of any unborn child.

If only God knew those children's fate, how is it that he made you privy to it as well? When did he say, "Psst, Magus! The Bible doesn't say anything about those unborn children all growing up to be manifestations of pure evil, but I'll tell you and only you right now - that's what they would have been. Go, tell it on the mountain!"

Stop twisting my words for your own agenda QoS - im not pro-choice.

Indeed, since you don't seem to support those children living, growing up and making a choice about whether they would have been good or evil.

Magus55

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:9 These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Mageth

Magus said:

Now do all this in order to save murderers, rapists, theives, and people that hate you - while gaining nothing in return that you didn't already have ( in other words - coming back to life and going to paradise doesn't apply since its nothing you didn't already have).

Gained nothing in return? Why don't you read your bible, Magus?

1 Pet 1:21 - who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Acts 2:33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 1:19-22 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

Philippians 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

Rational BAC

Magus--

Don't know if that was meant for me or not. If not I apologize.

But that does not explain the biblical concept of original sin at all. Or the rationality behind it.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.... Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Where does it say here that the unborn children would grow up to be evil?

I understand that you cannot address any of my other points, but at least try to answer this one. The text you have quoted says nothing about what unborn children would be in the future. Therefore, how do you account for your claim that these children would have been evil?

I ate Pascal's Wafer

LOL. This makes so much more sense now.

-Nick