winstonjen

One thing that some Christians, e.g. Magus55, keep saying is that 'oblivion is not a fair punishment', and only eternal suffering can be 'justice' for any 'sins' that we commit during this lifetime. It is also said that separation from god causes us to be in eternal torture, because 'god isn't there.' Well, what I don't understand is this - what's the difference between eternal separation and eternal oblivion? In both situations one would be away from god, right? So what is so special about the pain aspect of it? Is it just the 'justice' that believers really want, or the satisfaction of seeing those who chose a different faith (or lack of one) burn in hell?

Any other views/opinions on this?

Amos

Eternal oblivion is equal to "cold" while eternal seperation is equal to being "lukewarm." Eternal oblivion is good because cold is good while eternal seperation is not good (Rev.3:15).

Both positions can be held by believers and the difference between these two is that those in eternal oblivion do not know God in a personal while those in eternal seperation do know God in a personal way but remain distant from God by the "great divide" that they canot cross. This personal knowledge of God makes them "lukewarm" and some of them will even boast that they have seen the light while yet they confess to remain sinfull and must die like all humans before things will get better.

From the above it is easy to see how impoverished believers (eg. atheists) are cold (and therefore OK) while born again believers are lukewarm and actually are in hell until they don't get their act together (work out their salvation) lest they die with the unresolved paradox "sinfull yet saved."

I ate Pascal's Wafer

The difference between the situations is that in eternal oblivion we are just wiped away from existence. We simply cease to exist and can feel no more pain. With eternal separation we still exist and we can still be tortured throughout all time. Depending on the person, eternal separation has the potential to be an infinite punishment whereas eternal oblivion is just a one time thing.

I really don't think the average theist would get any satisfaction at seeing people of differing beliefs burn in hell. I think for them the concept of hell is something which reinforces their own belief. In trying to convince us to be afraid of this place, they are trying to justify their own belief to themselves. They really believe this, and they would rather us believe it too so that they don't have to see anybody burn. By making up horror stories about how hell is infinite punishment, they are both speculating as to the nature of hell and trying to scare non-believers into worshipping their deity. It follows from their own fear, not their desire to see people different from them burn.

At least this is what I can gather from various theists. There are always the exceptions who want anybody different from them to burn.

-Nick

Magus55

Because oblivion means you escape justice. I don't think it really has anything to do with the "pain" aspect - I think thats just a side effect of being in a place where nothing but evil exists. And the torment isn't the worst part - being separated from God ( as much as you all think it will be a blessing) is unimaginable.

Magus55

I have no need to spread the danger of Hell to justify my own faith. My faith is justified by God himself, not by Heaven or Hell. Sure I don't want to go to Hell because I don't want to be separated from God forever. And i certaintly don't relish in the idea of unbelievers being in Hell.

Tenek

Oblivion means Justice is no longer necessary. Tabula rasa, so to speak. We don't throw dead people in jail for crimes they committed, it's pointless.

Being separated from God may or may not be good. Being separated from His followers would be Heaven.

Infidelettante

I know it will do no good to ask Magus but please show how this is just. Does God have a definition of justice that different than ours? Can you understand why so many of us have objections to this line of thinking? For me it is a gut-wrenching, sick to my stomach reaction.

I defended the doctrine of hell when I was a Christian and now I would go to every person I ever witnessed to, if I could, and apologize. I would ask for forgiveness and explain my ignorance and foolishness. I can see some of those faces, some from thirty years ago and I hate it that I could have told them Hell waited for them.

I have few regrets about my life but the horror I spread in the name Christ I will regret to the depth of my being all the rest of my life. Perhaps the right question for you is, why won’t you?

JT

I ate Pascal's Wafer

Perhaps you are different, but there are a large number of Christians who do just that. It seems like they feel that unless they convince other people to be afraid too, then their own fear is unjustified.

If this is not how some Christians act, then please offer another reason as to why so many Christians focus on fear of eternal damnation as a witnessing tool.

Why is that? In human populations, oblivion is the ultimate punishment. If a human is horrible enough, then he is punished by being wiped out of existence. He is not punished by physical pain or being taken away from society--he is just wiped out of existence. This is not just in our society, but in many societies throughout time and geography. Why is God so different that he won't consider oblivion to be the ultimate justice?

-Nick

winstonjen

Exactly! Therefore, if the Xian god had half a brain (from the current bible, it seems that the Trinity share one brain cell between them, a la Baldrick's family), he would punish unbelievers by sending them to heaven to be with the fundies, or he would send the fundies to hell to be with the unbelievers.

winstonjen

Because in oblivion there's no pain, so to satisfy his own bloodlust, the Xian god must cause people to suffer.