Pierre

One good thing that organized religion does is that in many instances it cares, in one way or another, for the poor, needy and destitute. Atheists and agnostic societies are not renowned or known for this.

Another good thing that organized religion does is that it pampers, encourages and cares for the old…making senior citizens feel good, wanted and unwasted. Hardly any non-religious organizations does this on the scale that the church(es) does.

A last example could be the day-to-day crutch that religion offers some ordinary citizens – making them feel good about many things and helping them to cope with the realities of everyday life – at least that is what they perceive. Being non-religious offers no such (perceived) crutch and therefore the possibility is always there to fall back on alcohol, drugs or what have you in trying to cope with reality.

Religion (read the Church) in my book is therefore a “clean and good” drug, offers help to the poor and supports the needy and old.

But the moment it starts to preach on (after) life, speculates about creation and describes heaven and hell, the self-destruction process sets in.

Religion will one day sacrifice all the good things it does, by being caught out and exposed by a growing skeptical international society. But who will then care for the old, frail and destitute in many countries?

Will we as agnostics and atheists be able to organize ourselves and fill this unavoidable void? Will we do good in the end?

Kind regards from South Africa

Pierre

Alonzo Fyfe

No, atheist organizations do not do this. But this still leaves open the question of what atheists do as individuals.

The problem with atheists is that when they do these types of deeds, when they give blood or buy groceries for an elderly neighbor or donate time in a homeless shelter, they do not wear their atheism in the open. They do not do these things as atheists, they do these things as concerned human beings.

So, atheists as atheists do not get any credit for what they do.

At least, in my own case, I would say that nearly 100% of the strangers I have helped do not have a clue as to my beliefs. (Unfortunately, many of them will infer that my charitable acts are motivated by piety, simply because this is what people are accustomed to inferring.)

livius drusus

Welcome to II, Pierre. Please consider posting an introduction in the <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=43" target="_blank">Welcome Forum</a>.

I think your drug metaphor is an effective one on many levels. For one thing, I suspect that like drugs, religion will never be entirely supplanted by skepticism. Even the most secular country will still have religious citizens and institutions running charitable organizations.

I did a brief search to see if I could get some idea of how much money is currently spent by religious institutions, private organizations, governments and individuals on the indigent in various countries, but I found very few stats beyond per capita analyses of the charitable donations in a given country (mainly Canada, UK, US, Australia). Perhaps someone has a link or two which might be illuminating. I'll keep looking around as well.

Meanwhile, I think this thread is better suited to <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=45" target="_blank">Miscellaneous Religious Discussions</a> where I think it will garner more responses.

Great first post, Pierre.

DuckBlue

I totally agree with you Alonzo Fyfe. As for myself I do good deeds for countless others, be it tutoring for free, or even helping other move into the dorms, or giving drunk people rides home that are stuck somewhere.

I wonder sometimes that If I told them I was an atheist whether or not they would accept my help. The point is that there is no need for me to do so. I believe doing things for others is just one human do something for another, I don't need recognition and I definitely believe people should help each other out no matter what their lifestyle choice or choice of religion is. It's just the right thing to do. I would want someone to help me out in need, and it doesn't matter what there beliefs are compared to mine, I would simply be happy for someone to lend a hand.

DuckBlue

frostymama

I have always been involved in charity and volunteer work. Atheism didn't change that. Having kids has limited my involvement in a lot of stuff (like Special Olympics and clowning at hospitals and nursing homes)temporarily.

I actually decided not to participate with a charity about a year ago because they were so preachy. The charity provided blankets, isolet covers, and burial layettes for premies and newborns. I just couldn't have the stuff I was making attached to that group.

After I left that group I searched for an atheist group to join, but didn't have much luck. I had a hard time finding secular charity sewing groups of any kind. I guess that us few atheist women who like to sew don't organize many charities. I haven't given up on doing this sort of work though.

As soon as the new little guy arrives (and we get used to having another baby in the house) I hope to attempt sewing for charity again. I have heard good things about Project Linus and hope to be able to participate with that group.

Pierre

Wow! – I love this forum – thanks to all those that responded this far!

I agree that we as individuals can also do great deeds – also helping the old and sick like some Christians do. But the point I am struggling to make is that the Church can do this on a bigger and better (?) scale because it is organized as a large entity. If this organized entity disappears, many poor, sick and old would be far worse off. Unorganized, non-religious individuals like us would not be a comparable replacement. So either we give some credit to the church or get ourselves organized…

I therefore want to rephrase my original question…concerning the poor, old and needy - will we do better than the church in the end?

Garotte

Good Day All;

Well posted Pierre. Without the collective resources of the respective religous organizations, atheists as a group would not be in a position to match or surpass the extent of christian charity work.

The premice of the followers of Christ ahould be to love others as they love themselves, and what you do unto the least of these you do unto Christ, but one observes a decline in higher social conscience among so many of the Christian organizations. Have we seen an egocentric move on the part of many, as they leave the homeless laying in the street in order to build self-gratifying edifices to the glorification of their respective group?

Below is a quote from a post I made last year:

<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/faq1111.htm#WHATISPOSATH" target="_blank">http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/faq1111.htm#WHATISPOSATH</a>

"The philosophy of Positive Atheism was begun by Gora in India. Gora founded Atheist Centre and worked to end untouchability in India. He eventually met Mahatma Gandhi and they later worked together toward India's independence, which occurred in 1947.

He also worked with India's first Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, an atheist, urging him to support the formation of a secular government in the then predominantly Hindu nation of India. He later worked to establish a network of charitable organizations rivaling those in the United States, and putting to shame claims made about the allegedly wonderful work of Mother Teresa."

A weak atheist has just never considered theism,(does not have a belief in theism)a small child, a metally disabled individual,etc. would fall into this category. This has been called negative atheism.

A strong atheist declares with assurance, "there is no god/gods". This more vehement denunciation of theism can be called positive atheism, in contrast to the weak or negative atheism, but would more appropriately be called Strong Atheism.

Positive Atheism could be defined as the individual having divested themselves of all theistic inclinations, who abheres to a higher social conscience.

The Positive Atheist draws back to the Weak Atheist position, of having no belief in theism, without the vehement denunciation of theism, thus the burden of proof becomes the sole responsibility of any theist engaging the PA in dialogue.

The PA seeks the higher ideals of humanity, embracing the social activism and steadfast abherence to absolute truthfulness, which was the foundation of Gora's premice. The weaker position becomes the stronger do to a climate of inclusiveness for those seeking a refuge from theisim, the support and solidifying of social reforms, and the change which can be brought about in the realm of public perception.

A society is judged by how it cares for its most vulnerable. Gora's efforts to end the class of untouchables in India is a sterling example, of seeking to overcome the repression of the Hindu theocracy, and British Colonialism. A soft-spoken phrase of absolute truth can turn the sword of retribution far sooner than loudly shouted rhetoric.

__________________________________________________

Are we wiling to reach out in love to our fellow "man"? Are we as individuals willing to sacrifice of ourselves and our prosperity, so that those less fortunate might be helped? Are we willing to go beyond ourselves to make a difference in the lives and hearts of others?

A unified and collective Positive Atheist organization could develop, could garner the resources to truly make a difference.

It is hard to touch a human heart for the better, when their belly is empty, they are shivering in the cold, their family has no roof over their head, when the generational hatred and resentment runs so deep.


Will we do better than the Church in the end?
Not if we stand by and do nothing.

Be well, be wise, and seek after truth.

MadMordigan

But who will then care for the old, frail and destitute in many countries?

The same thing they do for me. Fuck all.

Rusting Car Bumper

I've argued that we should form organizations to do these things *as* non-believers.

DC

sighhswolf

There are many, many atheists, agnostics, non-theists, non-believers who day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year who do charity work.

There are many non-believers who care for and show compassion for the older members of our society.

The BIG AND GLARINGLY OBVIOUS DIFFERENCE HAS TO DO WITH .......................
quietly doing the right thing because they want to and because they care for humanity.
They ask for and expect no reward for being involved and giving time in good causes.
They do not scream from the rooftops about how they serve the lord and do his work.
They do not proclaim to do the lords work while envisioning the heavenly reward they are after at the same time.
They are intellectually honest, and truly caring, and that my friend is true "unconditional love".
Not the "if I do this god will reward me" love.
Wolf