Undercurrent

Hey, they have some good ideals, too. Like "love your neighbour" and "remove the sequoia from your own eye first." Wouldn't mind terribly if more people took those ones seriously (or the more attainable "be nice to your neighbour" and "don't go around thinking you're perfect.")

m.

SynchroKnight

I think this is the main issue within Christianity itself. All too often Christ is portrayed as a get-out-of-hell-free card. We poor mortals can do nothing for ourselves but accept God's "Free Gift" of salvation. Combine this with the "Once saved, Always saved" theology and you have a recipe for spiritual apathy. Christianity has been reduced to "Hell Insurance".

A christian would say to themselves "I am assured of my salvation. What difference does it make if I don't contribute to charity as often as I should or occasionaly go to an R-rated film?". The moral dimension has been completely removed.

edit for typos

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: SynchroKnight ]</p>

Toto

Good point. I think that is why all those Christian ministers are so down on Barna. They're in it for the money, they don't believe all that stuff, and they don't like anyone reminding them of it. But it is worth pointing out the hypocricy when Christians try to use the Bible to attack abortion rights.

A lot of Christians have come to terms with divorce, although the Bible condemns it much more clearly than it condemns anything else.

But even if you pick and choose what people think are the good parts of Christian morality, exemplified by Mother Theresa, there's a very dark side that goes against human nature and ends up being counter productive to human welfare.

Do you really want people who refuse to defend themselves when attacked? Wait for God to provide? Prefer poverty? Do we want people with money to invest wisely and create more wealth, or to give all of their worldly wealth to the underclass who will probably spend it on drugs in any case?

Anyone who actually tried to live by these principles, as a lot of hippie anarchists did in the 60's, is going to be run over by the forces of capitalism, as they all were.

It seems like Barna's true Christian is the new Socialist man. We know how that particular bit of social engineering turned out - very badly. But then I could never understand how a Christian could not be at least a socialist, if not a Communist.

Talulah

Your point is taken. It is true that the more of their religion that they ignore, the better off the world will be in a multitude of ways. We certainly don't want the whole of the world's Christian population living as if Christ was truly going to return any minute like the bible tells them to; not investing in their lives, not working or providing for themselves or their children. We really don't want a lot of people milling around without a cent to their name, all living in communes, cutting off their various limbs as they offend, spending all their free time washing all the feet that remain, all while looking at the sky.

However,

Encouraging them to be hypocrites is not enough.
Encouraging them to live secular lives is not enough, though obviously is shows how they truly view certian dictates of their religion, that Xtains seem to realise that there is more to life than waiting for a belated Savior to arrive.

The problem I have, is that these Xtains, while disregarding half of their own beliefs as stated in their holy book, still have the gall to pick and chose from it to condemn me.

The further away society seduces Xtains away from the bible the better, but I still think it beneficial to point out to Christians how they pick and chose what to believe.

Edited to say: Drat standerdized spelling.

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: Talulah ]</p>

diana

Hi, oser.

The reason I take Xns to task for being hypocritical is precisely because of the morally repugnant nature and/or outright unacceptability of their beliefs, if they follow them as they are clearly laid out.

If a Xn is forced to acknowledge that Jesus (for instance) honestly stressed that his followers are to eschew material possessions (and that there is no reason to believe this is meant figuratively), he must therefore face his own beliefs and decide just how much he believes them. He must deal with his own cognitive dissonance.

Those who bash gays because they believe it's God's will are very very rare, but those who do it because they have a bias that they can justify in God's name are a dime a dozen. Since the vast majority of people use their religion to justify what they've already decided is right or wrong, I'm not terribly concerned that people will start doing what the bible says a Xn should do even though it's obviously a ridiculous formula for living. It's far more likely that, if they're forced to acknowledge that their religion tells them to be indigent, to chop off offending limbs and so forth, they will critically examine their religion.

d

Ab_Normal

Indeed. If I believed in lawsuits, I'd sue the Roman Catholic Church to pay for the therapy I obviously need.

miscreant

Oddly enough, I've talked to a lot of 'Christians' who don't believe the scriptures, except as a 'good moral guide' (I'm guessing they didn't read a lot of their bibles), and even stranger, don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the whole central dogma of christianity? How can you call yourself christian if you don't believe Jesus was divine?

Always seemed odd to me...

Miscreant

simian

What the central dogma of Christianity is depends on the Christian you ask.

The Christians you describe are the Christians I would prefer seeing. Someday I will get around to reading some Boltman and see what the minimum qualifications for being a Christian are. His writings may be getting dated, but he has been suggested reading from a Christian I respect.

At least in the US I think Christianity is at a conservative (fundimentalist) state. There was a time when at least some prominent Christians spoke out in favor of the rights of women (even on abortion rights), the poor, etc. Now the public views seem to need to be the most fundimentalist, or they are "not a TRUE CHRISTIAN."

Simain

sakrilege

Change the religion to match the desired lifestyle and it's easy to follow.

I once knew someone who really believed god wanted him to spend his time dog sledding so that is what he did. Just because he greatly enjoyed dog sledding all the time didn't seem to matter. It was easy for him to do god's will!! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

miscreant

Well, I've lived in Canada and Europe for the most part, so the christians I've met are probably just calling themselves christian because their parents are. Most of them don't go to church, and even the ones who do generally sleep through it or mock it.

Now however, I'm in Atlanta and it's a whole different story. I'm just starting to get used to the giant bible quotes on the side of the road... and have decided it wouldn't be a good idea to tell my landlord I'm atheist. Probably get evicted!

Miscreant