Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 09-14-2002, 09:58 AM

An interesting article from my favorite section of the LA Times, about George Barna, the Christian pollster whose polls have showed that Christians are more likely to divorce than atheists, that self-described born-agains tend not to believe in moral absolutes, and place having a comfortable life style way ahead of building a personal relationship with God in their list of priorities:

<a href="http://www.latimes.com/features/religion/la-me-religpollster14sep14.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dreligi on" target="_blank">Pollster Prods Christian Conservatives</a> (requires free registration)

Quote:

Barna said his bluntness--an attribute he sees in the Gospel accounts of Jesus--has cost him business. Some churches and Christian organizations have refused to hire him--or even to let him bid on jobs--because he is "so negative."

. . .

Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," Barna said.

"The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?"

Barna is also working on getting a better portrayal of Christians in the "secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans, a position once held by the church."

Somehow Barna's efforts remind me of the effort to build a new Socialist man, except that he has better techniques of research and persuasion at his disposal.

sakrilege · 09-14-2002, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
<strong>An interesting article from my favorite section of the LA Times, about George Barna, the Christian pollster whose polls have showed that Christians are more likely to divorce than atheists, that self-described born-agains tend not to believe in moral absolutes, and place having a comfortable life style way ahead of building a personal relationship with God in their list of priorities
</strong>

So remind me again why we need to put god 'back' in public schools if believing in a god makes no difference in a person's life?

Starboy · 09-14-2002, 10:50 AM

Don't get me started. Christians SUCK!

Abacus · 09-14-2002, 11:03 AM

Sometimes I wonder why some Christians call themselves Christians at all, especially when they live little differently than me, the dirty, rotten, hellbound atheist. I think it is because they want the title. They can say, "I'm a Christian" thinking that other people will interpret this as "I'm a good, moral person."

Starboy · 09-14-2002, 11:26 AM

Abacus, couldn't agree more. Atheists know this lie and know that moral behavior is about moral living and not achieved by simply proclaiming oneself a Christian. I see this thinking as responsible for the deep problems in our society. People do not examine their lives and morals since they think everything is all right merely because they are Christians.

Starboy

Kosh · 09-15-2002, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy:
<strong>Don't get me started. Christians SUCK!</strong>

I have to agree with Starboy. My girlfriend in college was a devout Southern Baptist,and she
gave incredible..... uh, nevermind.

frostymama · 09-15-2002, 06:45 AM

I always thought sucking was one of those "abomintations". Consider yourself lucky. I am still trying to get over having that pounded into my head over and over again.

My poor husband.

diana · 09-15-2002, 07:19 AM

How many Xns would we find if we judged by how people live with no regard to what they tell us about themselves?

(I admit I'm stumbling into the True Scotsman fallacy a bit here. In order to play this game, we have to agree that there are certain basic concepts in the New Testament that are inherent in the word "Xn," above and beyond mere professed belief. Like "love your neighbor as yourself," "turn the other cheek," "if a man sues you for your coat, give him your cloak also," "take no thought to the morrow," "if a man asks you for something, give it to him and don't ask for it back," "don't gossip," "don't talk bad about people behind their backs," "be humble," etc....)

d

Talulah · 09-15-2002, 07:51 AM

Christians are hypocrites.

I remember one preacher I heard a couple of years ago who said as plain as day, 'A hypocrite is one that says one thing and does something else. We are all hypocrites, in that we believe and profess Xtainty but sin on a regular basis." I wondered at the time, if he was taking something that was supposed to be bad and avoided and making it something that was 'acceptable' because we all do it, as it is a result of the sin that we have in our lives.

This was among the thoughts that plagued me when I was trying to be a Christian in the past couple of years. Things like, why don't people live like they think every sin will lead them to an eternity of horrible anguish. Is it just fallible human nature to scoff at those who actually follow the rules that we claim to believe but mostly ignore outselves? Is is possible that these observations mean something?

One great thing about leaving Xtainty behind, my hypocrisy level shot down so fast I got dizzy from it.

muon · 09-15-2002, 09:09 AM

What's the point in taking Christians to task for being hypocritical?

Would you rather they live up to their scary ideals? That they spurn divorce? Try to outlaw witchcraft? Bash gays?

If anything, we secularists should be *encouraging* Christians to be hypocrites. We may never convince them to abandon their superstitions. But to the extent that they learn to ignore these superstitions, so much the better.
Hypocrisy: the saving grace of religion.

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09-14-2002, 10:50 AM	#3
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Don't get me started. Christians SUCK!

09-14-2002, 11:03 AM	#4
Abacus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Dakota Posts: 2,214	Sometimes I wonder why some Christians call themselves Christians at all, especially when they live little differently than me, the dirty, rotten, hellbound atheist. I think it is because they want the title. They can say, "I'm a Christian" thinking that other people will interpret this as "I'm a good, moral person."

09-14-2002, 11:26 AM	#5
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Abacus, couldn't agree more. Atheists know this lie and know that moral behavior is about moral living and not achieved by simply proclaiming oneself a Christian. I see this thinking as responsible for the deep problems in our society. People do not examine their lives and morals since they think everything is all right merely because they are Christians. Starboy

09-15-2002, 06:45 AM	#7
frostymama Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Georgia USA Posts: 927	I always thought sucking was one of those "abomintations". Consider yourself lucky. I am still trying to get over having that pounded into my head over and over again. My poor husband.

09-15-2002, 07:19 AM	#8
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	How many Xns would we find if we judged by how people live with no regard to what they tell us about themselves? (I admit I'm stumbling into the True Scotsman fallacy a bit here. In order to play this game, we have to agree that there are certain basic concepts in the New Testament that are inherent in the word "Xn," above and beyond mere professed belief. Like "love your neighbor as yourself," "turn the other cheek," "if a man sues you for your coat, give him your cloak also," "take no thought to the morrow," "if a man asks you for something, give it to him and don't ask for it back," "don't gossip," "don't talk bad about people behind their backs," "be humble," etc....) d

09-15-2002, 07:51 AM	#9
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	Christians are hypocrites. I remember one preacher I heard a couple of years ago who said as plain as day, 'A hypocrite is one that says one thing and does something else. We are all hypocrites, in that we believe and profess Xtainty but sin on a regular basis." I wondered at the time, if he was taking something that was supposed to be bad and avoided and making it something that was 'acceptable' because we all do it, as it is a result of the sin that we have in our lives. This was among the thoughts that plagued me when I was trying to be a Christian in the past couple of years. Things like, why don't people live like they think every sin will lead them to an eternity of horrible anguish. Is it just fallible human nature to scoff at those who actually follow the rules that we claim to believe but mostly ignore outselves? Is is possible that these observations mean something? One great thing about leaving Xtainty behind, my hypocrisy level shot down so fast I got dizzy from it.

09-15-2002, 09:09 AM	#10
muon Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,767	What's the point in taking Christians to task for being hypocritical? Would you rather they live up to their scary ideals? That they spurn divorce? Try to outlaw witchcraft? Bash gays? If anything, we secularists should be encouraging Christians to be hypocrites. We may never convince them to abandon their superstitions. But to the extent that they learn to ignore these superstitions, so much the better. Hypocrisy: the saving grace of religion.

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