LuckyCharm

Think so? Oh, there is the example of the thief on the cross, sure, but is that the norm? The Bible is full of exhortations to live our faith rather than just proclaim it:

"Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only"

"Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

"Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me."

"But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

I could go on, but I won't. Nevertheless, having said all that, I see no point in speculating who will be in heaven and who won't. As my original message was careful to qualify, "I still maintain that we will "know them by their fruits," at least in a general sense." Does "general sense" mean anything to you? I am not at all saying that God cannot make exceptions. In fact, I am sure He delights in them! My God is the God of the unexpected.... But we'd be foolish to depend on special treatment -- to me, that's not love of God, and love of God is the only thing that matters.


See above.

~~Cheryl

LuckyCharm

Could you give me a quote, Debbie? Thanks...

~~Cheryl

LuckyCharm

\
Please quote the passage to which you're referring.


Ah, but I am not like "other Christians," nor have I any interest in becoming so. I don't know why some people do what they do -- why don't you ask them, and not me? I don't live my life by majority opinion, Debbie. I do my own reasoning, thank you very much.

~~Cheryl

Debbie T

Cheryl It was already posted but here it is again:

Yet John 3:16 says:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It doesn't say follow it says believe in him. Most Christians I know say you have to ask Jesus into your heart and ask forgiveness.

I should add that I have yet to see a time line given in the bible on when you can accept Jesus or not before you die. If you know of one please state it.

Debbie T

I quoted it already.

No need to get defensive, I am asking you not another Christian and telling you what I know others to say. So getting back to what the bible says you still haven't answered my original question concerning Dahmer and possible death bed conversions. You made the claim that these kind of people wouldn't be in heaven. Care to back up your claim? It doesn't seem to be based on the bible.

So you are not like other Christians and other Christians say they are not like other Christians. Not sure why you are saying this or what it has to do with the discussion at hand. You made a claim that doesn't seem to be supported by the bible. If it is then I would like to see it.

LuckyCharm

What does "believe" mean to you, Debbie? If I handed you a parachute and told you to jump out of an airplane, assuring you that I'd packed it myself, would you be showing "belief" if you refused to jump?

Forget about what "most Christians" say. I want to know where you're getting this, from the Bible. John 3:16 just isn't it.

No, I do not know of one.

I will assume you simply missed it in the flurry of messages, or something... I clearly stated yesterday that "I don't know if Dahmer is in heaven. I don't know if Mahatma Gandhi is, or C.S. Lewis, or Adolph Hitler, or my mother. Neither do you."


'Nuff said.

~~Cheryl

Debbie T

All righty then.

Radorth

Re Bill S

It clearly is NOT righteousness which causes one to be filled, but a THIRST for righteousness. I'm merely saying some people thirst far more than others, and that God is more than willing to fill them, any time. There is no conflict with scripture although I know some Christians disagree. Unfortunately for them, we have the example of the thief on the cross who merely called Jesus "Lord." It appears God will find any excuse at all to save anybody, even Daggah and Fenton Mulley.

Right.

But this is what I keep saying and I admit it escapes the notice of Christians who think good works earn them pie in the sky. You would fault God for imputing righteousness to a person in their death moment? And what if a person truly does thirst after righteouness. Would you deny them an opportunity to be filled, even at the last moment? And if one has no love of justice or truth or goodness and only desires to justify their sins forever, what is wrong with God letting them go live with those of like mind? (I favor C.S. Lewis understanding of hell, where people actually choose to live there)

Again I assert that only the incorrigibly self-righteous will go to hell, and that by their own choice. They will be judged not by God, but by their own rules and by "the Queen of the South" and "the men of Ninevah."

Well I do agree things would be "different" if you were God. I do hope you would impute righteousness to me though, as I seem to have none of my own. Ask Toto.

Rad