Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Inconnu · 05-02-2003, 06:14 AM

Why would god opt for the peculiar design of making a person that will die? This brings about no end of problems for him. The need to convince a new generation every few years of his existence and the need to at the very least acknowledge him is one that immediately springs to mind. Why 'design in' this bothersome aspect of life? Creation of life is not mysterious any more, in fact, we can all do it! Who made you? A couple of HUMANS did from basically gook.
So, god didnt make you, so what did he make? Lets concede for argument that god made the universe, time etc, then initiated the evolution process, which is not out-of-bounds thinking for modern christians, correct me if I am wrong. The simple question here is why bother with an evolution of life? If a god is behind it then surely he would have gone straight for the human model, the initial idea so we are told? So, lets say he did and there was no evolution and he made Adam and Eve, the first people. Why would he make the first set of people with built in obsolescence? Adam and Eve (I am behind on christian thought somewhat, have these two been abandoned by christianity at all?) were made from bits lying around gods lab I presume, Eve was made from a phalic rib from Adam, I recall. Then these two 'begat' offspring who also 'begatted' 'begattors', and so on. Why would god give them that capability, the creation of duplicates, of life, the greatest mystery? Did he have some other things to be getting on with and couldnt spare the time to make more people himself and delagated it to A & E?
Apart from my ramblings, please, do people accept the ludicrocity of the whole concept and reason for creating life being purported to be of intellegent origin? There is basically no intelligent reason to HAVE life, it need not be there because it has no purpose other than to serve itself. Its not intelligent TO create such a thing.
For a design that requires reproduction, I guess the only corrolation with the current human race is the concept of machines(people) made by us(god) making other machines(people). The fact is, the machines can make other machines better, faster and more ecconomically than humans can. In fact, that is the only reason it is done this way. Love and respect et al do not apply, just pure economics. I assert that if there where a god it would not be sensible to attribute his creation of our life, and all life, with possitive "warm and fuzzy" motivation. Perhaps his ultimate goal, it seems, could be more sinister. If a god can only be good then there can be no god.

Inconnu · 05-08-2003, 01:30 AM

Well that died a death. OK, short and sweet:

If a god can only be good then there can be no god because there is no 'good'(virtue & validity) reason to create 'self serving only' life. Whims and fancies are ignored as far as gods are concerned. Wants and needs are a human preserve surely, not a gods. Unless you think god would say in response to "Why?" with "Cuz I felt like!", that leaves no good reason for a god to create life from nothing. If this was all gods "plan"(infering intelligent deliberation) then I wouldnt give him a job.

I admit its a simple argument but surley even just ONE reply would be nice, even just to say how shit it is

Goober · 05-08-2003, 03:04 AM

It's just to good to argue with

You're right, it would be stupid to make people that die all the time if you are the perfect creator, just like it would be stupid to have a car, designed by the perfect car manufacturer, that breaks down all the time, and only 2 were ever made so if anyone else wants one they have to make it themselves.

On the other hand maybe there is no perfect creator and people are the products of evolution. I wonder which makes more sense.

Maybe god made people because hes a sadistic bastard who gets off on the idea of making little toys, some of which worship his greatness while he throws the rest into a pit of eternal damnation for his viewing pleasure. He's omniegotistical and omnisadistical.

Darth Dane · 05-08-2003, 03:52 AM

What if in fact we don't die, but take on a new existance, or that we get reborn, some say this is part of teh design.

DD - Love Spliff

Inconnu · 05-08-2003, 06:42 AM

We definately die Darth, no question about it. You would have to die to be reborn or to have a new existance anyway.

Darth Dane · 05-08-2003, 06:44 AM

My point is that the "death" we will face is not final and will basicly nevr be final, it is a transition, death doesn't exist so to say, from a higher vantage point.

DD - Love Spliff

Wyz_sub10 · 05-08-2003, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
My point is that the "death" we will face is not final and will basicly nevr be final, it is a transition, death doesn't exist so to say, from a higher vantage point.
DD - Love Spliff

It still doesn't address why this "transition" is necessary, along with the huge amounts of suffering in life. What is the utility of a young girl who lives her life in excruciating pain from a debilitating disease, only to die at age 10? Compare that to a kid who has never wanted for anything. has known little pain, and has lived a long life in comfort?

There are too many rungs on the ladder between a good life and a bad one to assign any particular requirement for it if the "afterlife" (or "post-transition period") is what is really important.

Darth Dane · 05-08-2003, 01:16 PM

There are too many rungs on the ladder between a good life and a bad one to assign any particular requirement for it if the "afterlife" (or "post-transition period") is what is really important.

Thats partly the point, what is important right NOW is how we act towards other people and the world at large indirectly by all our actions of car driving, bed riding, air flying smoking drinking eating using electronics and so forth. Waht does it matter what kind of afterlife there is, if we can make the life we are living right now so much better for eachother.

wait a minute...Did I just say that I know what is important?
I'll ask myself if I can prove if taht is in fact the case....
Sorry I can't, I can't tell you it is true, if it is true, it will be because you yourself see it as truth and not because someone else says so, not even through time and a bible or holy texts can anyone tell you teh truth, only you can

Did I just do it again? Darn it

DD - Laughing Spliff

Darth Dane · 05-09-2003, 03:10 AM

Think of teh transition as this perhaps:

H2o is solid when the temperature is zero or below
H2o is liquid when the temperature is above zero and below boiling temperature
h2o is airy or airborne when reaching boiling point

Looking at the atmosphere the steams will condense when they get high enough, then they start becoming liquid again.

Fire(temperature) is the agent where things happen, if there was to be no transition there would be no movement, all would be as water.

The earth is Ice, we are water, through teh sun and life(where we burn our candle so to say) transforms us to an spiritual existance, when we have been in a spiritual existance for a while, we condense and are reborn on earth.

Do you understand the analogy?

DD - Love Spliff

Inconnu · 05-09-2003, 06:52 AM

Understood. But, DD, what is important right NOW is what we decide is important. The OP is suggesting that the process of life is not in keeping with a "beneficial" design other than to its self. The world could not be as it is now if a beneficial god had created it because the pieces just dont fit. Only a sadistic bored god would create such an enviroment. If god can only be good, then there cannot be a god. Kinda touches on the old chestnut of "why would god let X happen if he loves you etc", but what I am saying is "If god is good then why did he design such an awkward dangerous painfull unpleasant world in the first place?".
The answer is that a good god would not do such a thing, so either a bad god made it all, or no god made it all. I go with the latter.

05-02-2003, 06:14 AM	#1
Inconnu Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: here Posts: 121	Strange design, smells fishy! Why would god opt for the peculiar design of making a person that will die? This brings about no end of problems for him. The need to convince a new generation every few years of his existence and the need to at the very least acknowledge him is one that immediately springs to mind. Why 'design in' this bothersome aspect of life? Creation of life is not mysterious any more, in fact, we can all do it! Who made you? A couple of HUMANS did from basically gook. So, god didnt make you, so what did he make? Lets concede for argument that god made the universe, time etc, then initiated the evolution process, which is not out-of-bounds thinking for modern christians, correct me if I am wrong. The simple question here is why bother with an evolution of life? If a god is behind it then surely he would have gone straight for the human model, the initial idea so we are told? So, lets say he did and there was no evolution and he made Adam and Eve, the first people. Why would he make the first set of people with built in obsolescence? Adam and Eve (I am behind on christian thought somewhat, have these two been abandoned by christianity at all?) were made from bits lying around gods lab I presume, Eve was made from a phalic rib from Adam, I recall. Then these two 'begat' offspring who also 'begatted' 'begattors', and so on. Why would god give them that capability, the creation of duplicates, of life, the greatest mystery? Did he have some other things to be getting on with and couldnt spare the time to make more people himself and delagated it to A & E? Apart from my ramblings, please, do people accept the ludicrocity of the whole concept and reason for creating life being purported to be of intellegent origin? There is basically no intelligent reason to HAVE life, it need not be there because it has no purpose other than to serve itself. Its not intelligent TO create such a thing. For a design that requires reproduction, I guess the only corrolation with the current human race is the concept of machines(people) made by us(god) making other machines(people). The fact is, the machines can make other machines better, faster and more ecconomically than humans can. In fact, that is the only reason it is done this way. Love and respect et al do not apply, just pure economics. I assert that if there where a god it would not be sensible to attribute his creation of our life, and all life, with possitive "warm and fuzzy" motivation. Perhaps his ultimate goal, it seems, could be more sinister. If a god can only be good then there can be no god.

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05-08-2003, 01:30 AM	#2
Inconnu Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: here Posts: 121	Well that died a death. OK, short and sweet: If a god can only be good then there can be no god because there is no 'good'(virtue & validity) reason to create 'self serving only' life. Whims and fancies are ignored as far as gods are concerned. Wants and needs are a human preserve surely, not a gods. Unless you think god would say in response to "Why?" with "Cuz I felt like!", that leaves no good reason for a god to create life from nothing. If this was all gods "plan"(infering intelligent deliberation) then I wouldnt give him a job. I admit its a simple argument but surley even just ONE reply would be nice, even just to say how shit it is

05-08-2003, 03:04 AM	#3
Goober Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 1,202	It's just to good to argue with You're right, it would be stupid to make people that die all the time if you are the perfect creator, just like it would be stupid to have a car, designed by the perfect car manufacturer, that breaks down all the time, and only 2 were ever made so if anyone else wants one they have to make it themselves. On the other hand maybe there is no perfect creator and people are the products of evolution. I wonder which makes more sense. Maybe god made people because hes a sadistic bastard who gets off on the idea of making little toys, some of which worship his greatness while he throws the rest into a pit of eternal damnation for his viewing pleasure. He's omniegotistical and omnisadistical.

05-08-2003, 03:52 AM	#4
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	What if in fact we don't die, but take on a new existance, or that we get reborn, some say this is part of teh design. DD - Love Spliff

05-08-2003, 06:42 AM	#5
Inconnu Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: here Posts: 121	We definately die Darth, no question about it. You would have to die to be reborn or to have a new existance anyway.

05-08-2003, 06:44 AM	#6
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	My point is that the "death" we will face is not final and will basicly nevr be final, it is a transition, death doesn't exist so to say, from a higher vantage point. DD - Love Spliff

05-08-2003, 01:16 PM	#8
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	There are too many rungs on the ladder between a good life and a bad one to assign any particular requirement for it if the "afterlife" (or "post-transition period") is what is really important. Thats partly the point, what is important right NOW is how we act towards other people and the world at large indirectly by all our actions of car driving, bed riding, air flying smoking drinking eating using electronics and so forth. Waht does it matter what kind of afterlife there is, if we can make the life we are living right now so much better for eachother. wait a minute...Did I just say that I know what is important? I'll ask myself if I can prove if taht is in fact the case.... Sorry I can't, I can't tell you it is true, if it is true, it will be because you yourself see it as truth and not because someone else says so, not even through time and a bible or holy texts can anyone tell you teh truth, only you can Did I just do it again? Darn it DD - Laughing Spliff

05-09-2003, 03:10 AM	#9
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Think of teh transition as this perhaps: H2o is solid when the temperature is zero or below H2o is liquid when the temperature is above zero and below boiling temperature h2o is airy or airborne when reaching boiling point Looking at the atmosphere the steams will condense when they get high enough, then they start becoming liquid again. Fire(temperature) is the agent where things happen, if there was to be no transition there would be no movement, all would be as water. The earth is Ice, we are water, through teh sun and life(where we burn our candle so to say) transforms us to an spiritual existance, when we have been in a spiritual existance for a while, we condense and are reborn on earth. Do you understand the analogy? DD - Love Spliff

05-09-2003, 06:52 AM	#10
Inconnu Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: here Posts: 121	Understood. But, DD, what is important right NOW is what we decide is important. The OP is suggesting that the process of life is not in keeping with a "beneficial" design other than to its self. The world could not be as it is now if a beneficial god had created it because the pieces just dont fit. Only a sadistic bored god would create such an enviroment. If god can only be good, then there cannot be a god. Kinda touches on the old chestnut of "why would god let X happen if he loves you etc", but what I am saying is "If god is good then why did he design such an awkward dangerous painfull unpleasant world in the first place?". The answer is that a good god would not do such a thing, so either a bad god made it all, or no god made it all. I go with the latter.

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