Bookman

Orpheus, believe it or not there are many who consider themselves cultural Jews while still being atheists or agnostics.

Orpheous99

Originally posted by Zero Angel:

Bullshit. There are plenty of agnostic and atheist Jews.

That is like saying there are plenty of Atheistic and Agnostic Christians.

Oxymoron:

1. Conjoining contradictory terms (as in 'deafening silence')

But, just to play along, are you meaning to define "Jew" as a subscriber to the religion of Judaism (orthodox or otherwise)?

Yes, of course.

If you aren't, then you are making a blatant and bigoted generalization that (why am I not surprised?) carries quite a reek of anti-semitism.

Why is it that whenever someone doesn't bow down and worship or excuse the Jews for everything they do that they are automatically labeled bigots or anti-senites?

I say the same of every religious belief system which uses it to get what they want unfairly of others. Just because the Jews have been persecuted throughout history doesn't excuse them from not doing as they please.

cjr1851

You mean like Mary?

Orpheous99

Wouldn't that also make them hypocrits as well since the culture and the religion are one in the same?

manhattan

This is factually incorrect.

A Jew, to Judaism, is the offspring of a Jewish woman, as noted above, or a convert to Judiasm.

The son of a Jewish mother who decides to declare as atheist is still Jewish -- certainly to Judaism, and most often to himself.

In particular, Judaism considers the laws of the OT to be binding on all Jews, regardless of whether they consider themselves Jewish. So from their perspective, I'm only supposed to obey seven laws, whereas a Jewish atheist is supposed to obey dozens or hundreds (depending on the level of orthodoxy).

-Edited on account of I managed to spell Judaism incorrectly three times. Bad Bill Gates! Bad Spellcheck!

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: manhattan ]</p>

Orpheous99

According to the myth she didn't have sex at all to conceive Jesus.

Immaculate Conception:

2.The Roman Catholic doctrine that the Virgin Mary was conceived (I thought that it was Jesus?) without any stain of original sin(sex)

Orpheous99

Isn't it contradictory to say both of a Jewish mother and a convert as well? And for the rest it is just plain nonsense as well as it assumes that the one professing atheism or agnosticism is still a part of the religion. But then again they also assume that they are the only Choosen People of God and the rest of us are doomed.

I would say the someone who is born of a Jewish mother and no longer believes in the religion is of Jewish descent, but not a Jew.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]</p>

manhattan

Nope. The son of a Jewish mother is automatically Jewish, and has all of the obligations that entails simply by virtue of being born. A convert accepts the obligations on his/her behalf and on behalf of his/her children (in the male case, assuming he marries a Jewish woman).

To Judaism, that's exactly right (except for the part of it being nonsense). An atheist Jew is exactly that -- a Jew not obeying the commandments. If he is atheist enough, he may even be an apostate Jew. But he's still Jewish.

If a Jewish person told me this and asked not to be called Jewish, of course I'd respect his wishes. But since every Jewish atheist I've ever met (and I live in New York -- there's no shortage here!) has self-identified as Jewish, I'll feel free to ignore your interpretation. Which, by the way, is factually incorrect as I said.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ][/QB][/QUOTE]

Orpheous99

Maybe I should have said "the term non-religious Jew is an oxymoron"?

cjr1851

Yes, I know what the myth is, I was being facetious.

But seriously the other posters are right. There is a form of cultural Jewishness that a great many of us atheist Jews feel is a part of us. This probably applies to most members of my family (though not myself). IMHO It is a difficult thing for gentiles to understand because (frankly) it is not a product of logic so much as sentimentality. However, why not just accept it - what is it that offends you about it?