Vanderzyden

Hello,

I am relatively new to Infidels, posting over in Evolution/Creation. If you don't mind, I would like to raise an issue that infrequently arises in the E/C dialogues.

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It is certain that we are all moving toward the Last Horizon. I speak of physical death. But what type of event will it be?

My contention is that most people have not given proper attention to their journey toward this unavoidable destination. Often, we see emotional responses in the context of a tragedy, but the urgency quickly fades, and life goes on. Others avoid the subject entirely or make jokes.

So, I like to ask such people, "Are you ready?"

A typical reply goes like this:

"Ready for what? I will stop laughing when I am dead, thank you, and only because I will cease to exist, and for no other reason."

How are we to interpret such a response? Is it:

-- a nervous "giggle" because she's not really thought this through?
-- actual indifference concerning her impending death
-- that she somehow has uniquely privileged information so that she knows with absolute certainty that she will cease to exist when she dies?


I have my own ideas, but I'd like to learn from people here: what are the most convincing demonstrations that may be brought forward in this discussion?

My assertions:

1. No one is indifferent toward their death.
2. No one knows with certainty what occurs immediately following death.
3. It is worth thinking carefully about and learning what evidence exists.
4. To avoid the question entirely is to make a grave mistake (pun intended).


Vanderzyden

General Zod

And as E/C demonstrates, you will never be shaken from them. Good day.

K

Vanderzyden:

It sounds like you're clinging to your beliefs because you're afraid of death. Is that true. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people purposely ignore evidence because of that very same fear. Does believing in something because we are afraid of the alternative make that belief true?

Zimyatin

I'll bite....

1. No one is indifferent toward their death.

Because no one, except suicidal muslim terrorists, wants to die?

2. No one knows with certainty what occurs immediately following death.

You continue to be dead? Your heart stops. Your brain activity fades. Then worms have a feast.


3. It is worth thinking carefully about and learning what evidence exists.

Evidence?

4. To avoid the question entirely is to make a grave mistake (pun intended).

Really? Or is to waste time worrying about a foolish way of depriving yourself of the life you already know you have? Life is short. Live it.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

Hey Vander.

I am. I don't exactly want to die, but I know it's going to happen soon enough. Everyone does it at some point in their life, and I've come to accept that it will eventually happen to me. There's no way around it.

We know that the body will decompose over a period of a few months to several years. We know that the brain decomposes right along with the body, and we also know that the brain plays a large part in the intelligence/personality of a person.

If you're implying that we don't know for certain whether or not a supernatural entity called the "soul" survives after our body dies, keep in mind that we don't know for certain that invisible pixies don't exist either. In fact, there are many, many hypothetical entities that we don't know whether or not they exist, and the soul is among them. Until there is some kind of evidence suggesting that a soul does indeed exist I'm not going to worry about what happens after death.

Perhaps, but then again there are many things that are worth thinking carefully about. I, for one, prefer to spend my time researching other ideas. Afterall, one can't devote ones time to everything. At the moment, I see little hope that anyone will provide evidence that a soul exists and that it survives after death. When they do I will become interested, but until then I put the hypothesis right up there with UFO's, pixies, and dancing beaver deities.

How so? I could make the assertion that evil gnomes will give you an atomic wedgie if you don't give me $10.00 by tomorrow, and that you would be making a grave mistake by ignoring the concept. However, it's still an unsubstantiated assertion. If I expect you to believe me I have to provide some evidence that these evil gnomes exist, and that they also give people atomic wedgies if those people don't give me $10.00. If I don't provide the evidence, you are justified in not fearing the gnomes.

Same concept with the afterlife. Until the soul can be shown to exist, and until it can be shown that the soul will either spend eternity in paradise or torment, I have no reason to fear the afterlife. It is merely one more unsubstantiated assertion. It isn't a grave mistake to simply spend ones time pursuing more important ideas and concepts. It merely shows that the person does not wish to spend his time researching assertions which have no evidence to support them.

-Nick
-edited because eye Kant fuse the rite werds.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: I ate Pascals Wafer ]</p>

HelenM

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
I speak of physical death. But what type of event will it be?

As painless as possible, I hope!

So, I like to ask such people, "Are you ready?"

Yep!

As ready as I'll ever be...

I have my own ideas, but I'd like to learn from people here

You'd like to learn from people here?

What have you learned so far? How's it going?

take care
Helen

Ab_Normal

All together now: "The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out, the worms play pinochle on your snout..."

Seriously, why have you started 3 threads on this topic?

WWSD

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:

My contention is that most people have not given proper attention to their journey toward this unavoidable destination. Often, we see emotional responses in the context of a tragedy, but the urgency quickly fades, and life goes on. Others avoid the subject entirely or make jokes.

Well, I'm not really sure about most people, but I have given it considerable thought. I've had two cancer scares, and each time I thought about death extensively. It scares the piss out of me.


So, I like to ask such people, "Are you ready?"


Ready to die or ready to face what comes after?
If its simply ready to di, then, no, I'm not ready to die. I don't know if this is actually an achievable idea. Perhaps after a long and painful illness one might be prepared, but at the moment, I'm not. If I had to face death right now, I'd be very angry.


A typical reply goes like this:

"Ready for what? I will stop laughing when I am dead, thank you, and only because I will cease to exist, and for no other reason."

How are we to interpret such a response? Is it:

-- a nervous "giggle" because she's not really thought this through?
-- actual indifference concerning her impending death
-- that she somehow has uniquely privileged information so that she knows with absolute certainty that she will cease to exist when she dies?

Who knows what really goes on in the mind of another sentient being?


My assertions:
1. No one is indifferent toward their death.


I agree. Everyone has an opinion or feeling about the issue. As to what that opinion or feeling is, who knows?


2. No one knows with certainty what occurs immediately following death.


True, but some of us think the probability of existence after death is so improbable as to be insignificant.


3. It is worth thinking carefully about and learning what evidence exists.


What evidence does exist? I've sorted through some claims but found them lacking.
Sure, I would love it if someone could prove that I went on after death. Personally I don't want to stop existing. But if that's the way it goes, what am I going to do about it?


4. To avoid the question entirely is to make a grave mistake (pun intended).


Nice pun.

Seriously though, I doubt that anyone can spend thier entire lives without even taking a cursory glance at the issue.

Some may think about it once, assume they are going to heaven, and never think of it again.

Others may spend time considering the implications of non-existence and wondering what the point is.

Still others might ponder it too much and go completely insane.

As for myself, I fit neatly in between the last two options.

The Lone Ranger

Someday I'll die. This is inevitable. I'm not looking forward to it, and I intend to put it off as long as possible, or until I decide that life is no longer worth living.

But what could possibly be more pointless than obsessing over the inevitable?

I don't worry about death because I'm far more interested in life.



Ready as I'll ever be.


The "evidence" that consciousness persists in any form after the death of the body is unconvincing, to say the least. The only way to know is to die. I'm not anxious to perform the experiment.

Anyone who claims to know that there's "life after death" is either deluded or a liar. Personally, I have more important matters to worry about.


Cheers,

Michael

Demigawd

<strong>So, I like to ask such people, "Are you ready?"</strong>

That is a pretty loaded question coming from an evangelical. Now that you've repeatedly failed to sway people here from evolution, are you now setting up for a round of "fear the fires of Hell"?