Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GPLindsey · 05-13-2002, 05:08 PM

I think that I am in the same boat as many people on this subject--we are having trouble finding a way of condemning reprehensible thoughts without asserting that they are immoral, because morality/ethics don't enter into the picture until a person acts on those thoughts. How about that reprehensible thoughts, if never acted upon, are not immoral, but they can be condemned on aesthetic grounds. A humanistic outlook on life would call on people to aspire to the best within themselves in thought, word, and action. If you are spending your days daydreaming about rape, your hatred of minorities, or the "Green Acres" theme song, then you are NOT using that time to reflect upon nobler things. Thinking about the mysteries of philosophy or replaying some masterwork of classical music in your head is simply more praiseworthy than rerunning the Jerry Springer episode you saw that morning in your head over and over. It is not immoral to think about about such crap, its just a waste of your time.

MadMordigan · 05-13-2002, 10:19 PM

I definately have opinions about those kinds of thoughts. Hell I hav opinions on almost EVERYTHING. But they are more of a taste than anything else. I'd no more condem someone's choice of fantasies than I'd condemn their preference in ice cream flavours.

HelenM · 05-14-2002, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GPLindsey:
I think that I am in the same boat as many people on this subject--we are having trouble finding a way of condemning reprehensible thoughts without asserting that they are immoral, because morality/ethics don't enter into the picture until a person acts on those thoughts. How about that reprehensible thoughts, if never acted upon, are not immoral, but they can be condemned on aesthetic grounds. A humanistic outlook on life would call on people to aspire to the best within themselves in thought, word, and action. If you are spending your days daydreaming about rape, your hatred of minorities, or the "Green Acres" theme song, then you are NOT using that time to reflect upon nobler things. Thinking about the mysteries of philosophy or replaying some masterwork of classical music in your head is simply more praiseworthy than rerunning the Jerry Springer episode you saw that morning in your head over and over. It is not immoral to think about about such crap, its just a waste of your time.

But...if such fantasies serve the purpose of preventing people acting out in reprehensible ways, then they aren't a waste of time and they do serve a beneficial purpose, don't they?

I mean, if even in your thoughts you have to think good and noble stuff all the time...that's so restrictive...aren't you going to 'explode' one day and go out and do something unspeakable...

I don't know...I say this because it seems to have come up on this thread, the idea that fantasizing is a way of dealing with certain things that it would not be a good idea to act out.

But otoh maybe you are right.

Or, it might depend on the situation. Each person knows whether their fantasizing is using up a lot of time when they could be out there making the world a better place, or fantasizing about doing so, perhaps...

love
Helen

Mad Kally · 05-14-2002, 06:11 PM

Until the thought police show up, dream on and screw guilt.

HelenM · 05-15-2002, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally:
Until the thought police show up, dream on and screw guilt.

...and personally, I hope that day is a long way away!

Not that I have any thoughts I wouldn't want to share, of course...I was just thinking of everyone else!

love
Helen

abe smith · 05-15-2002, 06:51 AM

To GPLindsey, post just up-there^^^; I wonder what your criterion of "praiseworthy" is? e.g. that listening to a Louis the B. Str 4tet or reading say Platto is more "praiseworthy" than reading the funnies.... Are we basing *value* assessment on what some other peep-hole will think of us for our choice of entertainments?My own O is that reading "Crankshaft" is fun; I do it everyday & laugh;; and/but that um, hearing a late B. 4tet {OH, gummee, if I could HEAR agen!} is in some ways more um.... ENTERTAINING than reading "Crankshaft", because the 4tet is merely more complicated, more variegated, more intricate , more multiplick than oneday's comicstrip is. TicTacToe is fun; and playing "Boxes" at the THX dinnertable w/ a bored 5-yr-old is fun; but sometimes one wants the more-entertaining entertainment of Chess; or a MIddleton Anacrostic. ... A matter of personal choice.

WinAce · 05-23-2002, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christopher Lord:
This explains why only very stupid (uneducated, etc) people perform crimes. More intelligent people can picture its vileness and consequences, and temper any possible benefit of the action with this knowledge. Not only this, they can see the bigger picture of society as a whole, and see the clear advantages of not doing these things.

I can't believe that in 3 pages of new posts after that one, no one's pointed out just how bigoted that statement appeared. Only stupid people perform crimes? SHEESH!

That said, until the Borg arrive, you'll never know for sure what strange and weird thoughts each of us have. Unless they begin affecting our lives negatively (i.e., being acted upon) it shouldn't matter at all. Since this topic is specifically about 'never acted upon' thoughts, there's your answer

Christopher Lord · 05-23-2002, 04:51 PM

Allen, are you suggesting there is no correlation between education level and crime, or are you attempting to straw man may statement?

yelyos · 05-23-2002, 06:27 PM

In my opinion, crimes have nothing to do with education level.
I think that one does not have to be educated to be moral, and vice versa. One someone has decided to commit a crime, they are not going to worry about value to society.
Crimes are commited not because of societal redeeming value, but value to the individual commiting the crime.
Getting caught, however, is another matter.

On topic...
I also have what one would call morally reprehensible fantasies, and most always they are done, like our shoesalesman, at night. But I use them to get myself to sleep, so I can be rested the next day. In my case at least, my fantasies have a purpose.

Also, I never imagine anything happening to anyone in these fantasies which I wouldn't be able to stomach in real life. (i.e. pain)

tronvillain · 05-23-2002, 07:00 PM

Well, if you have more money you are less likely to commit many crimes, and being more educated with making more money, so it's not hard to see how there could be a correlation. Of course, making more money may open up opportunities for new crimes...

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05-13-2002, 05:08 PM	#91
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	I think that I am in the same boat as many people on this subject--we are having trouble finding a way of condemning reprehensible thoughts without asserting that they are immoral, because morality/ethics don't enter into the picture until a person acts on those thoughts. How about that reprehensible thoughts, if never acted upon, are not immoral, but they can be condemned on aesthetic grounds. A humanistic outlook on life would call on people to aspire to the best within themselves in thought, word, and action. If you are spending your days daydreaming about rape, your hatred of minorities, or the "Green Acres" theme song, then you are NOT using that time to reflect upon nobler things. Thinking about the mysteries of philosophy or replaying some masterwork of classical music in your head is simply more praiseworthy than rerunning the Jerry Springer episode you saw that morning in your head over and over. It is not immoral to think about about such crap, its just a waste of your time.

05-13-2002, 10:19 PM	#92
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	I definately have opinions about those kinds of thoughts. Hell I hav opinions on almost EVERYTHING. But they are more of a taste than anything else. I'd no more condem someone's choice of fantasies than I'd condemn their preference in ice cream flavours.

05-14-2002, 06:11 PM	#94
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	Until the thought police show up, dream on and screw guilt.

05-15-2002, 06:51 AM	#96
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	To GPLindsey, post just up-there^^^; I wonder what your criterion of "praiseworthy" is? e.g. that listening to a Louis the B. Str 4tet or reading say Platto is more "praiseworthy" than reading the funnies.... Are we basing value assessment on what some other peep-hole will think of us for our choice of entertainments?My own O is that reading "Crankshaft" is fun; I do it everyday & laugh;; and/but that um, hearing a late B. 4tet {OH, gummee, if I could HEAR agen!} is in some ways more um.... ENTERTAINING than reading "Crankshaft", because the 4tet is merely more complicated, more variegated, more intricate , more multiplick than oneday's comicstrip is. TicTacToe is fun; and playing "Boxes" at the THX dinnertable w/ a bored 5-yr-old is fun; but sometimes one wants the more-entertaining entertainment of Chess; or a MIddleton Anacrostic. ... A matter of personal choice.

05-23-2002, 04:51 PM	#98
Christopher Lord Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 808	Allen, are you suggesting there is no correlation between education level and crime, or are you attempting to straw man may statement?

05-23-2002, 06:27 PM	#99
yelyos Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: northern suburbs of Toronto, Canada Posts: 401	In my opinion, crimes have nothing to do with education level. I think that one does not have to be educated to be moral, and vice versa. One someone has decided to commit a crime, they are not going to worry about value to society. Crimes are commited not because of societal redeeming value, but value to the individual commiting the crime. Getting caught, however, is another matter. On topic... I also have what one would call morally reprehensible fantasies, and most always they are done, like our shoesalesman, at night. But I use them to get myself to sleep, so I can be rested the next day. In my case at least, my fantasies have a purpose. Also, I never imagine anything happening to anyone in these fantasies which I wouldn't be able to stomach in real life. (i.e. pain)

05-23-2002, 07:00 PM	#100
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Well, if you have more money you are less likely to commit many crimes, and being more educated with making more money, so it's not hard to see how there could be a correlation. Of course, making more money may open up opportunities for new crimes...

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