Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jj · 02-28-2002, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Page:
quote:
The only way you could get free will is to have a non-causal universe. Unfortunately, you would then have no way of knowing you had free will, let alone act on it.

Now that is a stretch. Since we do in fact have some understanding of the model Quantum Mechanics gives is, we can in fact assert that the universe is non-causal, in fact completely probabilistic, at the basic level.

We can and do know that, utterly falsifying, and I mean completely rendering your statement as falsified.

In short, we can and we do know exactly what you assert would be unknowable if it was true.

Care to play again?

tronvillain · 02-28-2002, 05:45 PM

Automaton:

Quote:

That is not my point. I was saying that an entity cannot exist in one dimension. Time comes with space. Space comes with time. If there is this mythical fifth dimension, then we, as well as God, exist in all of the five. So the logical conclusion of this is that God exists in our spacetime as well, which defeats the purpose of your original rationalization.

That is not the logical conclusion at all. A line is one dimensional, but add a second dimension to create a plane and another line can exist without ever touching the first line. Now, a plane is two dimensional, but add a third dimension to create space and another plane can exist without ever touching the first plane. You can keep on going like this for as long as you want - if there is a fifth dimension, then it is possible for another space-time or a "God" to exist without existing in our space time.

99Percent · 02-28-2002, 08:27 PM

Likewise in the fifth dimension this god would have to be parallel to us and never touch us, so it existence would become irrelevant.

tronvillain · 02-28-2002, 09:22 PM

No, that doesn't follow I'm afraid. Something that exists in three dimensions can interact with something limited to a two dimensional section of those three dimensions.

99Percent · 02-28-2002, 10:25 PM

If "it" interacts then it is not parallel to our dimension anymore, is it? And in the intersection it interacts within the realm of the dimension it intersects. So imagining all these extra dimensions is really a pointless proposition.

Freakytoo · 02-28-2002, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by devnet:
I'm a 100% practical atheist. I prefer to be generous and give little godikins the benefit of doubt, but it would be actually worse if he really exists, because he'd be the biggest drip in the Universe. If he exists and is in control of history, then I hate him on 1) the collective level of killing 6 million Jews, including the whole family of my grandparents, and 2) the personal level of not doing the tiniest thing to communicate with me, although I tried talking to him for about two years.

If God does not exist, there's no-need to submit to him; switch case, else if, God does exist, then I hate him and refuse to submit to him. Damned and cursed be he for his mean, hateful, spiteful, nasty, horrid, miserly behaviour. I don't want this occult estupido, the revelation of the natural universe is enough for me.

(edited for a few repairs)

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: devnet ]

tronvillain · 02-28-2002, 10:42 PM

Actually, I'm not even sure how they came up in the first place. You're right of course - under this view, when "God" interacts with us he has to exist at least partially within our space-time.

jj · 03-01-2002, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain:
Actually, I'm not even sure how they came up in the first place. You're right of course - under this view, when "God" interacts with us he has to exist at least partially within our space-time.

And pardon me, but if something is "parallel" to us, it will have a projection, and therefore an interaction, in this space.

If it's ORTHOGONAL to us, it won't.

Just a pedant...

Albert Cipriani · 03-01-2002, 07:02 AM

Tronvillain is right:

Quote:

Something that exists in three dimensions can interact with something limited to a two dimensional section of those three dimensions.

I think that parallel dimensions, like parallel universes, are only theoretical. In the only universe we know of, our 4 dimensions exist like concentric rings with the singularity of the Big Bang as the primeval first dimensional dot, so to speak.

Each dimension builds upon the dimension it arises from:
1) Without a one-dimensional dot you can't have a two-dimensional plane.
2) Without a two-dimensional plane you can't have a three-dimensional cube.
3) Without a dimensional something to move, you can't have time, the fourth dimension.

God is like that. The de fide Catholic dogma states that God the Son proceeds from God the Father and God the Holy Ghost proceeds from them both.

In a sense, the lowly one-dimensional dot can be seen as the greatest dimension in that without it, no other dimensions are possible. Thus, Jesus could say that He and His Father were one, and yet His Father was greater than He. --Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Albert Cipriani · 03-01-2002, 07:15 AM

Dear Devnet,
You say that if God exists, and is in control of history, you hate Him because of the holocaust. Conversely it follows from this that, if God exists, and is NOT in control of history, He hates us because of the holocaust.

Ergo, don't you think the more enlightened attitude would be to hate the holocaust and not the gods or people responsible for it? � Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

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02-28-2002, 08:27 PM	#133
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	Likewise in the fifth dimension this god would have to be parallel to us and never touch us, so it existence would become irrelevant.

02-28-2002, 09:22 PM	#134
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	No, that doesn't follow I'm afraid. Something that exists in three dimensions can interact with something limited to a two dimensional section of those three dimensions.

02-28-2002, 10:25 PM	#135
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	If "it" interacts then it is not parallel to our dimension anymore, is it? And in the intersection it interacts within the realm of the dimension it intersects. So imagining all these extra dimensions is really a pointless proposition.

02-28-2002, 10:42 PM	#137
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Actually, I'm not even sure how they came up in the first place. You're right of course - under this view, when "God" interacts with us he has to exist at least partially within our space-time.

03-01-2002, 07:15 AM	#140
Albert Cipriani Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,018	Dear Devnet, You say that if God exists, and is in control of history, you hate Him because of the holocaust. Conversely it follows from this that, if God exists, and is NOT in control of history, He hates us because of the holocaust. Ergo, don't you think the more enlightened attitude would be to hate the holocaust and not the gods or people responsible for it? � Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

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