jojo-sa

oops i misread

hought you said inequality of sexes.

anyway please explain more about this unequal treatment of believers. i dont get this one either

peace

RyanS2

From my reading of the Qur'an, it was mostly rubbish. (That's also my opinion on the Avesta, feel free to disagree). I thought maybe it was a bad translation, certainly I've heard Muslims complain before about that. So, I went down to the library to check it out in another version, this one with a lexicon and commentary, (the commentary, ironically, made it worse), to see if maybe I was missing something. The commentators kept talking about "Islamic Tradition", which is apparently, stories contained within the Hadith. Then I read the Hadith. There, I found out that Satan could invade my dreams by sneaking up my nose, so after a bad dream, I needed to snort water and blow it back out three times. I further found out that Muhammad fondled a 9 year old girl on her period, that Muhammad had killed a Jewish man for his money, (after torturing him), then took his wife for a whore. I also found a curious story about the apocolypse where the Muslims are out hunting down and killing all the Jews, but a few Jews get away by hiding behind a tree, (or maybe it's a rock). The Muslims then go up to the tree and say, "Hey, where'd the Jews go?" And the tree responds, "Haven't seen them". (The story might have been about a rock, I haven't read it in a while.) I also find out that either Noah or Moses is crying in heaven, whenever he looks to a certain direction. When he looks to one direction, he sees the Jews, and on the other, he sees the Muslims. He's crying because he knows that many more of the Muslims are going to make it to heaven than the Jews. Also, women and dogs apparently block the ability of God to receive prayers, if a woman or dog walks in front of you while praying, God won't receive that prayer.

Then, I checked out Rev. St. Clair's, "The Original Sources of the Koran", a good read for Christians, Muslims, and Atheists alike. The Qur'an is hard to understand because there's no context for most of the things it says, and the stories are generally from a wide variety of sources. Western scholars analyzing Arabian history, the Qur'an, and the Hadith, generally believe that Muhammad originally, (read: "before he was strong enough to"), went around trying to convert other religions, such as the Sabians, the Jews, the Christians, etc. to his religion, and to make it easier, he incorporated their stories into the Qur'an.

The people wouldn't convert, so then, Muhammad would destroy them once he had accumulated enough followers to do so.

jojo-sa

Interesting concepts

seem you were reading warraq's book. although you claim otherwise.

Funny how all your socalled amazing stupid things about islam is all the same points i have seen on the net on many sites and many coming from waraq's book.

i just wonder where your real source is? what did you really read.

Just a comment on the 9 year old female.

In those days this custom was quite normal to marry a girl who was pass puberty already.Even today its ok in many places.

Everyone practiced this. the romans the jews the christians.

So what is the prob with it. i dont see it.

Other wise could you please quote what you find "funny" so i can look into your statements.

thanks

Orpheous99

I have a feeling that we could provide you with all the evidence needed and you would still refuse to see it. You're either a "TRUE" believer or just an ignorant troll, which is just about the same thing.

DMB

Jojo-sa: Thank you for at least attempting a serious reply this time.

Your total ignorance of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is surprising, to say the least. Have a look at it <a href="http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html" target="_blank">here.</a>

It is one of the most important documents of the 20th century and perhaps of all time. It is well worth anyone's study. Since the Universal Declaration (UDHR) there have been many other UN human rights instruments. When you tell me what you think of the UDHR, we may then be able to discuss it in relation to islam.

I haven't got a copy of the koran handy beside my computer, so will give you koranic references tomorrow. I am thinking of inequalities in the rights of husbands and wives and inequalities in the inheritance rights of men and women.

If you don't know about the dar al-Harb and the dar al-Islam, you are hardly qualified to tell us about jihad, since there is a connection between these topics. I suggest you find out.

I don't think you answered my 5th question. As with dar al-Harb, etc., you need to find out something about the islamic concept and treatment of Dhimmi if you want either to appear here as some sort of authority on islam or as a defender of it. You could do worse than read Ibn Warraq's books (he has published more than one). He is a scholar and has probably forgotten more about islam than you have ever known.

I am not claiming authority over you. I merely pointed out that when people ask you serious questions, you will not be taken seriously if you give rude and empty answers.

I have suggested quite a lot of things for you to study. If you do so, you should be all the better as a muslim for being better informed. Good luck!

-DM-

Yes. I am quite sure about that, especially in the case of a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient "God."

I'm not talking about what would sell, or what people would buy, but whether I or a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient "God" could put together a set of ethical/moral rules that could NOT be used to condone violence. This set of rules might be unworkable, and there might be many who would disagree with them, but that doesn't mean that they could be used to condone violence.

That's what I think.

It is interesting, isn't it, how believers in different and opposing religious belief systems nevertheless believe that they have found the one, true religion.

I lived in and worked in Iran at one time. It was difficult for me to believe the brutality of Muslim to Muslim. Each little village had its de facto chief and a hierarchal pecking-order. Try to buck the system, and unless you were someone with a lot of clout, you were in for big trouble.

--Don--

-DM-

1) What I said was, "I do not think it would be difficult even for me to write a so-called holy book which clearly laid-out the ethical/moral rules by which we are to live ..., which holy book could not be perverted and misused to justify an agenda of violence .... It should be even less difficult for a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient and loving supernatural being to do so." In other words, it is the agenda of violence that I am talking about.
2) Certainly a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient "God" should have no problem doing so as compared to me. And even I think it possible to write a set of rules which could at the least NOT be used to justify violence.
3) At the very least, such a set of rules could leave out verses such as those that have been quoted from the Quran which can CLEARLY be used to condone violence.
4) But no, I'm not going to write such a book. Inasmuch as I do not claim to have had a revelation from "God" as did Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, etc., etc., there would be little point in doing so other than to satisfy your curiosity.

You could begin by reading some of what secular humanists have written regarding ethics. One thing that you will NOT find them doing is suggesting the kinds of inhumane treatment which the Quran suggests regarding disbelievers.

What have atheists got to offer? It depends on whether you are talking about atheists in general (those who simply disbelieve in gods) or whether you are talking about atheists who are also humanists, atheists who are concerned with the interests and welfare of human beings. If you are talking about atheists who are also humanists, they have one heck of a lot more to offer than do followers of a bogus holy book such as the Quran or the Bible which was allegedly revealed by "God" and which condones and/or promotes violence and hatred.

Start by reading <a href="http://www.progressivehumanism.com/ethics.html" target="_blank">Humanist Ethics</a> by Carl Coon

Continue with <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/ought.html" target="_blank">What an Atheist Ought to Stand For</a> by Richard Carrier.

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0879755520/glance/002-3035789-7629608/InternetInfidelsA" target="_blank">Ethics Without God</a> by Kai Nielsen.

Then, when you're done with that, compare what you have read from these humanists with <a href="http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/af_ti.html" target="_blank">THE TERRORS OF ISLAM</a> by Antony Flew.

Practice what you preach. When you have finished the assigned reading, get back to me.

--Don--

-DM-

Not true. You did get response.

I purposely ignored your question because I didn't want to insult you or hurt your feelings unnecessarily answering a question which I thought more or less irrelevant. But since you are pressing the issue, no, if I had a choice, I would NOT let you raise my kids as Muslims. Neither would I want you or anyone else to raise them as Christians, Jews, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., etc.

So I take it then, if you do not read up on humanistic ethics, then we should ignore all your future comments.

Good point. When are you going to seriously begin to find out about it?

what is and is not blabbering is at least somewhat a matter of opinion. My opinion is that you do a lot of posturing and blabbering based on your religious indoctrination, most of your posts being rather troll-like.

--Don--

jojo-sa

don

so you claim atheist are humanists?

jojo-sa

how do you(humanist aka atheists) recommend we deal with these issues for eg

1. inheritance

2. alcholics

3. the murderer

4. the oppresor

5. child rapists

6. adultery

7. drug problem

8. poverty

etc.

i can tell you each socalled secular country has its own system and to date none of the systems work. this is easily proven or showed to you.

and please dont ask me how islam deals with this as an answer. this i will tell you as much as my knowledge on the topics go.( i dont claim to know everything)

just answer my questions so i can see how you (humanists aka atheist function) straight from the horses mouth.