Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 04-06-2002, 12:11 AM

This is a provocative essay, which might be a little paranoid. It touches on some themes that were the subject of some old threads in this forum - the movement to restore the temple (and animal sacrifices), etc.

<a href="http://www.unknownnews.net/cdd040302.html" target="_blank">The Middle East Conflict - Has it Been Engineered by Extremist Rightwing Christians and Zionists Hoping to "Force" the "Rapture"?</a>

(snip)

Quote:

It seems insane that Sharon has staked his country's security on an alliance with Bush � a man who describes himself as a fundamentalist Christian (which by definition means anti-Semitic), whose mentor Billy Graham was blatantly anti-Semitic, whose family actively traded with the Nazis in WWII and who has himself made anti-Semitic comments. This is like getting into bed with a rattlesnake and assuming you won't get bitten.

But, there is another dimension to the Middle East insanity very, very few know about: the <a href="http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1288/8812031.htm" target="_blank">unholy alliance</a> between the Christian right and their Jewish counterparts, the Zionists. While sane people around the world view the Middle East conflict as "mere" political wrangling with religious undertones, the rightwing Christians and Zionists see the conflict as a prelude to the final chapter in the fulfillment of Biblical scriptures - at least as interpreted by <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A28620-2001Sep14&notFound=true" target="_blank">paranoid schizophrenics with religious delusions</a> such as Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and their <a href="http://www.parascience.org/apocalypse.htm" target="_blank">Rabbinical counterparts</a> in Israel and America . These people <a href="http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/10/22/News/News.14078.html" target="_blank">welcome the current bloodbath</a> with "rapturously" open arms � it means the "final Chapter" is imminent, at the conclusion of which the faithful will ascend to heaven and the rest of us heathens will die a horrible death.

Some reactions to the essay, plus some extra links, are <a href="http://www.unknownnews.net/cdd040502.html" target="_blank">here</a>.

There is also this <a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/north7.html" target="_blank">essay</a> by Gary North, written in 2000, on anti-Semitism among Fundamentalists:

Quote:

In order for most of today�s Christians to escape physical death, two-thirds of the Jews in Israel must perish, soon. This is the grim prophetic trade-off that fundamentalists rarely discuss publicly, but which is the central motivation in the movement�s support for Israel. It should be clear why they believe that Israel must be defended at all costs by the West. If Israel were militarily removed from history prior to the Rapture, then the strongest case for Christians� imminent escape from death would have to be abandoned. This would mean the indefinite delay of the Rapture. The fundamentalist movement thrives on the doctrine of the imminent Rapture, not the indefinitely postponed Rapture.

Every time you hear the phrase, "Jesus is coming back soon," you should mentally add, "and two-thirds of the Jews of Israel will be dead in �soon plus 84 months.�" Fundamentalists really do believe that they probably will not die physically, but to secure this faith prophetically, they must defend the doctrine of an inevitable holocaust.

Your comments are welcome. Please tell me this is not true.

bunnytoes · 04-06-2002, 01:58 AM

I had to check this out for myself, and ran across a book Apocalypse Pretty Soon
Travels in End-Time America
By Alex Heard that was reviewed by Red Herring

Quote:

Alex Heard's Apocalypse Pretty Soon: Travels in End-Time America, besides
mining the mother lodes of American looniness, is a hoot. Americans' constitutional
right to believe whatever they damn well please combined with the size of God's
country have allowed all kinds of dingbat denominations to flourish from the beginning.

Sounds like a fun read to me so long as I forget these kooks in control of the executive branch, own one of the two major political parties and operated one of the most well funded PACs of all time. I'm thinking a little paranoia is well founded.

[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: bunnytoes ]</p>

Vorkosigan · 04-06-2002, 04:46 AM

Gore Vidal wrote an essay on this years ago in connection with the Reagans. Wish I could remember the name of it, but it is collected in his brilliant, giant essay collection....which I've forgotten the name of....something like United States: Essays 19??-19??.

Michael

Toto · 04-06-2002, 09:03 AM

Is it <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767908066/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">United States : Essays, 1952-1992</a> or <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385501544/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">The Last Empire Essays 1992-2000</a>?

Vorkosigan · 04-06-2002, 01:06 PM

The first one.

Michael

freemonkey · 04-06-2002, 05:17 PM

This is not the first time I've heard this kind of stuff. I can't link to the exact page but you can find the episode of this show if you want to:<a href="http://www.thislife.org/" target="_blank">NPR-This American Life Episode 125, April 2, 1999</a> They discussed the rapture with several nutjobs, one of these guys is raising red cows, supposedly with the help of some rabbis.

ex-preacher · 04-06-2002, 05:58 PM

As an ex-fundamentalist with many fundamentalist friends & family, I can testify that I have never met a fundamentalist who thought that he/she could or should do anything to bring on Armageddon. I should note that my background is in the Church of Christ, which is amillennial (as opposed to premillennial or postmillennial). I believe that most Methodists, such as Geroge W. Bush, are also amillennial. In fact, the Catholic Church and most Christian denominations, even among evangelicals, are not premillennial, but the premillennialists get all the press (ala "Left Behind").

Even among the vast majority of premillennial fundamentlaists, such as the infamous Pat Robertson, there is no impulse to rush Armageddon. This false charge was made against Robertson when he ran for president. Most fundamentalists wish to see the Second Coming delayed so that more people can be saved.

I do not at all think that fundamentalism = anti-Semitism. Especially among modern premmies, there is a love for Israel which borders on the absurd. Most of them believe that all Jews will eventually be saved. They tend to be fanatically pro-Israel. Their thinking is that God loves Israel above all and will bless anyone who blesses Israel. Recently, a group of prominent fundagelicals (such as Gary Bauer & Jerry Falwell) issued a statement calling on Bush to be more pro-Israel.

cydonia · 04-07-2002, 03:14 PM

Well first off there is a possibility people are being paranoid. I don't think Bush is trying to cause the rapture. (BTW i support Bush for the most part, because i believe in small government. I don't agree with his religious beliefs.)

But the other day my art director, who is christian, was talking to one of our assistant managers, who is christian. They were discussing this whole middle east debacle and my art director said, "But that's fine, bring it on because we know what will happen!" They were both taking joy in the war over there becuause it would bring them closer to the day that they vanish into outer space with Jesus. It was kind of a depressing episode.

Grumpy · 04-07-2002, 04:47 PM

Quote:

...a man who describes himself as a fundamentalist Christian (which by definition means anti-Semitic), whose mentor Billy Graham was blatantly anti-Semitic...

First, Billy Graham was privately anti-Semitic. He was openly very friendly to Jews (this is what made him giggle when he visited the Oval Office). And since when are fundamentalist Christians "by definition" anti-Semitic? Evangelical Christians want everybody to be born-again, including Jews. In fact, some believe that Jews have a separate destiny and need not convert. While this view may consign Jews to Hell, it's hardly unique for that particular ethnicity.

Godless Dave · 04-07-2002, 08:38 PM

Whether they believe it or not, there's a lot of money in convincing people that the end of the world is near. If you're going to be lifted up into heaven within a few years, what do you need the money for anyway? In fact, won't Jesus be disappointed that you haven't given it all to the church by then?

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04-06-2002, 04:46 AM	#3
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Gore Vidal wrote an essay on this years ago in connection with the Reagans. Wish I could remember the name of it, but it is collected in his brilliant, giant essay collection....which I've forgotten the name of....something like United States: Essays 19??-19??. Michael

04-06-2002, 09:03 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Is it <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767908066/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">United States : Essays, 1952-1992</a> or <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385501544/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">The Last Empire Essays 1992-2000</a>?

04-06-2002, 01:06 PM	#5
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	The first one. Michael

04-06-2002, 05:17 PM	#6
freemonkey Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: hell if I know Posts: 2,306	This is not the first time I've heard this kind of stuff. I can't link to the exact page but you can find the episode of this show if you want to:<a href="http://www.thislife.org/" target="_blank">NPR-This American Life Episode 125, April 2, 1999</a> They discussed the rapture with several nutjobs, one of these guys is raising red cows, supposedly with the help of some rabbis.

04-06-2002, 05:58 PM	#7
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	As an ex-fundamentalist with many fundamentalist friends & family, I can testify that I have never met a fundamentalist who thought that he/she could or should do anything to bring on Armageddon. I should note that my background is in the Church of Christ, which is amillennial (as opposed to premillennial or postmillennial). I believe that most Methodists, such as Geroge W. Bush, are also amillennial. In fact, the Catholic Church and most Christian denominations, even among evangelicals, are not premillennial, but the premillennialists get all the press (ala "Left Behind"). Even among the vast majority of premillennial fundamentlaists, such as the infamous Pat Robertson, there is no impulse to rush Armageddon. This false charge was made against Robertson when he ran for president. Most fundamentalists wish to see the Second Coming delayed so that more people can be saved. I do not at all think that fundamentalism = anti-Semitism. Especially among modern premmies, there is a love for Israel which borders on the absurd. Most of them believe that all Jews will eventually be saved. They tend to be fanatically pro-Israel. Their thinking is that God loves Israel above all and will bless anyone who blesses Israel. Recently, a group of prominent fundagelicals (such as Gary Bauer & Jerry Falwell) issued a statement calling on Bush to be more pro-Israel.

04-07-2002, 03:14 PM	#8
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Well first off there is a possibility people are being paranoid. I don't think Bush is trying to cause the rapture. (BTW i support Bush for the most part, because i believe in small government. I don't agree with his religious beliefs.) But the other day my art director, who is christian, was talking to one of our assistant managers, who is christian. They were discussing this whole middle east debacle and my art director said, "But that's fine, bring it on because we know what will happen!" They were both taking joy in the war over there becuause it would bring them closer to the day that they vanish into outer space with Jesus. It was kind of a depressing episode.

04-07-2002, 08:38 PM	#10
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Whether they believe it or not, there's a lot of money in convincing people that the end of the world is near. If you're going to be lifted up into heaven within a few years, what do you need the money for anyway? In fact, won't Jesus be disappointed that you haven't given it all to the church by then?

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