Datheron

Layman,

That is really a non-sequitur.

The fact of the matter is, such struggles are struggles for power, regardless of religious belief. As Lenin and Hitler saw it, religions were a threat to their power - it presented an organization separate from their own control of the country, hence they must be exterminated. With Hitler, Jews were used also as scapegoats to unite the people to a common enemy. Such tactics also have their counterparts in religions - Islamic jihads, Salem witch-trials, etc.

The point is, faith in religion (or lack thereof) is used as an excuse on both sides to commit atrocities. Just as Christians can denounce the supporters of the Crusades as "not true Christians", atheists can dismiss Lenin as "not a true atheist"; in fact, both statements are correct, and pointing fingers leads us nowhere.

Toto

I had to step out, and now my original point has been distorted beyond recognition.

I said that if there were proof of the truth of Christianity, that logical people would tend to become Christians, and more and more logical people would be drawn to Christianity. But you can't observe this happening - Christianity has had 2000 years to prove its case and the most logical people in our society are the most likely to be non-theistic. And as our society has become more educated, religiosity has become less prevalent, and religion has changed its character. Why it hasn't died out completely is a larger topic.

And I doubt that Communists have been the only atheists in power. (I think of Communism as just another apocalyptic religion in any case.)

Orpheous99

Originally posted by Layman:

You are contradicting yourself. You say people are not rational. You admit that the truth will not necessarily succeed in gaining all converts. Then you agree with Toto that because not everyone agrees with Christianity it must be untrue (but agnosticism/atheism IS true, even though only 4% of the people in the U.S. believe in it). Which is it?

Did you forget to take your medication today, because you're quite deluded? You are seeing what isn't there.

What makes you think Chrisitniaty is disappearing?

Because it doesn't have the power and control it once had. Because I'm still alive and haven't been burned at the stake for heresy. It is not "disappearing" it is dying.

There are about 2 billion of us ya know. And we are seeing remarkable growth in Asia and Africa.

That is an over inflated number, it is more like 1.5 billion (They are counting people who were born into Christian homes but no long believe or pratice and the like). Plus, Islam is gaining more real ground in places like Africa and Asia than Christianity is. Missionaries tend to overinflate their numbers. They believe just because they give someone some food and aid that they will be real converts.

Geepers you are being simplisitc. Lenin and Stalin were atheists dedicated to promoting atheism and squashing Christianity and other religions.

Just like most theists, you're completely ignorant about history. Just because they may have been atheists doesn't reflect on all other atheists for the simple fact that atheism is not an organized belief system with common rites and rituals and the like as religions like Christianity, Judaism, or even Islam have. The only thing which all atheists have in common is that they don't believe there is a god. On the otherhand what one theist does will reflect on on all other theists of the same belief system since they do have set rites and rituals and other dogma.

Many of you were Christians in your younger days, but clearly are no longer so. So your red herrings are sad. Immature one might say.

I was never a voluntary Christian. As soon as I was old enough to know better and to think for myself I had seen it for what it truly was, nonsense.

But you are really missing the point. The fact is that communist governments are the only examples we have of atheists having control over governments.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!, Man, are ever ignorant. Do you actually know what communism is, that is without looking it up?


Hitler a Christian? Don't be silly.

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. [original italics]

For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will. Therefore, let every man be active, each in his own denomination if you please, and let every man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his religious community and tries to butt into the other.

[...]

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. [original italics]

-- Adolf Hitler, from "Mein Kampf",
translation by Ralph Mannheim.

Hitler certainly appeared at times to be a theist, and claimed to be a Christian:

The Führer made it known to those entrusted with the Final Solution that the killings should be done as humanely as possible. This was in line with his conviction that he was observing God's injunction to cleanse the world of vermin. Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" [quoting Hitler]), he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God -- so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty.

-- John Toland (Pulitzer Prize winner),
from "Adolf Hitler", pp 507, talking about the Autumn of 1941.

The "I am now as before a Catholic..." quotation from Hitler was recorded in the diary of Gerhard Engel, an SS Adjutant, in October 1941. Hitler was speaking in private, not before a mass audience, and so it is difficult to dismiss the comment as propaganda lies.

I'm always amazed at the ignorance of Christians when it comes to real world facts.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]</p>

Orpheous99

Originally posted by Layman:

Books. The Bible is a collection of books. Some of which are much older than 1500 years.

Irrelevant. It has only existed as a whole for around 1500 years, and even then most of the books are highly edited and "revised" as it is. The books left out of it tell more than the books which were added. Besideds, much of them are based on myths and stories from OTHER belief system. Ancient Greece has had much influence on many of the stories as well.

Again, all you can retreat to is that I'm a Christian and therefore so completely illogical that you needn't even attempt to explain yourself.

BS.

I know you and Toto have faith that Christianity--and its 2 billion adherents

That number is a lie.

--is somehow withering, but until you give me some evidence, I'm unconvinced. Besides, it is in Christian nations--such as Western Europe and the United States--where freedom of expression and religion have prospered the most.

The USA is not a Christian Nation. If it were it would be like Iran is an Islamic Nation. The USA is not a theocracy. Once again you are showing your ignorance. The founding fathers of the USA were not Adherant Christians and based the majority of the Constitution and Bill of Rights on ancient Greek principles and concepts. This freedom is not because they are Christians, but because they choose not to enforce Christianity on all.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]</p>

Orpheous99

Irrelevant.

Orpheous99

He didn't have to. Germans were already Christian and a majority approved of what he was doing to the Jews.

Layman

What source do you have that the majority of Jews approved of what Hitler was doing to the Jews?

And you've gone far afield. We were discussing the use of state coercion to propogate the faith. Hiter did not use the state to promote Christianity.

Layman

The usual Secular Web chest-thumping and insults.

That's really stupid position. The fact that Christian nations are typically politically and religiously tolerant does not mean that Christianity is dying. So, do you have any real evidence that Christianity is dying? Or just your wishful thinking.

And what is your "real" source for the "real" number of Christians? And I agree that Islam is growing faster than Christianity is. That does not mean that Christianity is not experiencing strong growth in Africa and Asia. It is. Unless you have some sources to the contrary?

Nah, I'm quite knowledgeable about history. Lenin and Stalin didn't just "happen" to be atheists. Atheism was an inherent part of the political theory they followed an attempted to impose on an unwilling world. Communism certainly was and is an organized belief system and one of its tenants is atheism. This doesn't reflect on all atheists, just as the IRA doesn't reflect on all Catholics. But it does demonstrate that every country that has officially embraced atheism has been just as--if not more--brutal than any comparative theistic counterpart.

Sure I do. And atheism is a core component of communism. To this day the communist party in China is officially atheistic. To be a member one must profess atheism and the party still persecutes theists of many varities, including Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists.



You have yet to articulate my ignorance of any "real world facts." And, I might add, Hitler sounds a lot more like you skeptics when you see his real views towards Christianity.

Layman

Layman

Nah, it was highly relevant. It finally got you to at least attempt to defend your overlybroad statements. Too bad you are still wading in bland SecWeb generalities.