Magus55

Not that it means much but you have to question how Israel and Jews, the most persecuted people through all of history get stronger every day, as prophecised exactly 3000 years ago.

Read Ezekial 36-37, people today are returning to Israel and it was "reborn" in 1948. And even being surrounded by countries that hate them, are hostile, want nothing more than to destroy the state - Israel is still there just as God said it would be.

Spaz

Have you, magus, ever thought maybe the prophecy didn't predict it, but because of the prophecy people accomplished it? Perhaps the Jews wouldn't have struggled to get Israel if it wasn't promised to them by their god in the torah. Same for the fall of a city, perhaps somebody would read the prophecy and think, hell, we can attack this city because god said it would fall, perhaps god is on our side and it will be destroyed. Then they get lucky and the city falls, does that really mean god had anything to do with it? Ever thought that maybe we are in control of what happens?

Magus55

Yes i can see it now, Jews persecuted for 3000 years, surrounded by countries that hate Israel and Jews with constant fighting and murder of Jews, yet they somehow survived without Israel and the Jews combining with surrounding cultures and peoples, or being killed off. The Bible prophecy says the heathen's surrounding them will be against Israel and try to destroy her. how did the jews end up being in the middle of countries of an opposing religion that hate israel and want her destroyed, just like it said 3000 years ago?

You have common sense, be real here. No one could have actually planned the nation of Israel to follow the prophecy and make it look fulfilled. You are basically saying, the Jews that established Israel knew they would be in the middle of the heathens before the heathens were even there, then made themselves the most persecuted people and nation in history, asked Hitler to kill 5 million of themselves and surrounding nations to committ terrorism on them and try to wipe them off the map, then had millions of Jews organize together and make the nation "reborn" in 1948, including organizing the return of tons of Jews to the nation. All to fulfill a 3000 year old prophecy?

You have got to be kidding me. That prophecy was fulfilled, plain and simple. There was no rational way for that prophecy to be fulfilled without an omniscient being.

Spaz

Because they always have why the hell do you think they were in eastern europe? Because that was where the people would tolerate them the most. Western Europe had christians that hated jews, and the middle east had muslims and christians that hated jews.

Couldn't that pretty much be done just by making the nation?

The palestinians were there, and they never wanted israel to be there, so yes, they knew they would be in the middle of heathens.

IMO, that probably came about because the jews don't go around converting everybody like the christians and muslims do, which makes more christians and more muslims that resent them.

No, I think they have their god to thank for that.

You like to jump back and forth in time a lot while arguing eh? I would think that the terrorism was inevitable, seeing as they established their nation in the middle of nations of a different religion.

Well the jews had to move there because their homes and their possessions were taken by the nazis, the UN established Israel, and the british that controlled the area at the time didn't stop them from moving in, no matter how much the palestinians didn't like it, because of sympathy from the holocaust.

And to have homes, but the specific place where they wanted it established, yes, to fulfill that prophecy.

Magus55

Spaz, anyone with common sense would know people would not go to that extent to fulfill a prophecy that knew was made up ( they wouldn't have needed to go out of their way to fulfill it themselves if they believed God would do it).

You will say absolutely anything to disprove the Bible, no matter how absurd and unrealistic. That prophecy was fulfilled and not by the Jews making it so on their own, thats absolutely ludicrous. Deal with it.

The Jews established themselves there because thats where their tribes were from, they had absolutely no clue that they were establishing a nation on what would later become the most violent area in the world. I can't believe you actually think the Jews put themselves there so that they could be attacked, killed, blown up, surrounded by hate just to fulfill a prophecy they knew wasn't real anyway.

Spaz

Well if they thought they had god on their side, would they fear the people around them?

Magus55

Why would they have to fulfill the prophecy on their own when God said he would do it? If they believed in the OT prophecies and that God would protect them, they never would have had to do it on their own since God told them He would do it.

Clutch

magus, I swear, the solar system is on the verge of collapsing on your skull.

Do you think the people (guilty-minded post-WWII Christian Brits, not primarily Jews!) who pushed through the creation of modern Israel were unaware that (a) many dispossessed Jews wanted a homeland in Palestine and (b) their Christian bibles recommended this action?

Even such apparently "structuring" causes of the event as the relative powerlessness of the Palestinians to resist the decision were partial functions of historical Christian doctrine. Certainly as regards the primary determinants of the creation of Israel, it's as transparent a case of self-fulfilling prophecy as one could ask for. Your mantra about common sense appears to mean, in your mouth, the complete suspension of critical reasoning faculties. Grow up.

Magus55

Sorry clutch, but you are wrong. May 15, 1948, the day after Israel was reborn as a nation, they were attacked by an overwhelming superior arab military force from all countries surrounding Israel, yet even the day after they became a reborn nation, possessing no actual army, they defeated the Arabs.

God said he would protect Israel and no one would drive them out of their land. How could a tiny band of Israelis drive out the attacking Arabs? The Jews couldn't have self fulfilled the prophecy because the Arabs attacked THEM, and the Israelis won. . The Jews would have had to force the Arabs to attack them for it to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Israel has been bombarded by superior forces for decades, yet they are still around and get stronger every day. Self-fullfilling prophecy my arse. Get over your denial and constant attempt to throw absolutely anything related to prophecy in the trash since you don't want to accept that its true.

You cannot fulfill your own countries prophecy by forcing every nation around you to come attack you and purposely lose. That is what would have had to happen for it to be self-fulfilled, and it would completely defy all logic.

Ezekial 36-37 was not a self-fulfilled prophecy. You have nothing to back up that it was other than opinion and a false illogical argument.

Clutch

Magus, seriously. Think hard, take a deep breath, and attempt to grasp the distinction between the creation of modern Israel, and its subsequent history. I pointed out the self-fulfilling nature of the former. Your word-salad reply seems to have changed topic, to the latter. We can demolish your inanities about this too, if you'd like, but could we please just stick to one thing at a time?

You must perceive, however dimly, that your recitations of absurd falsehoods and half-or-less-understood irrelevancies are convincing to nobody here. I have read your exchanges with many posters, who routinely demolish your sophomorisms only to have you produce still worse in response. There is apparently no lower bound to this process. The crowning irony in each of these exchanges is your standard insistence that your interlocutors should learn more about the topic at hand.

Quite apart from your failure to provide any evidence for prophecy, or even to speak coherently about it, the looming question is really one of broader intent: Is it for your own benefit that you engage in this embarrassment of yourself and of Christianity in general? When even other Christians are telling you to get half a clue before popping off, what do you suppose yourself to be accomplishing?

These are hard words, and yes, I'm frustrated by your apparent satisfaction with and even pride in your ignorance and credulity. But it is not too late to salvage the intellectual respect of a community that seems, in my experience, to value a commitment to learning. This will require a substantial change in your thinking, though. Repent, and be worth taking seriously.