Ojuice5001

Okay, I think there aren't enough people who worship the gods of Rome. The number of Roman (or Greek, I consider them to be the same gods) pagans is infinitesimal compared to the number of Christians, atheists, and even other paganism-revival religions. Most people have know of neither the existence nor the names of the Religio Romana and Hellenismos. And on a more anecdotal note, in C-SS, scigirl recently said she "couldn't say 'I swear by Apollo' without laughing." Something needs to be done about this, and I'm just the guy to do it.

I would like to convert Christians, atheists, agnostics, and Muslims until their combined numbers in my area are about as great as those of atheists and agnostics alone now, while the percentage of pagans is not less than 70%. The only major effor I have made is trying to use apologetic arguments on atheists, and that doesn't work because, I find weak arguments for polytheism to be satisfying (after all, I see polytheism as inherently plausible), while most atheists, in complete contrast, demand strong arguments.

So what do you suggest doing, to bring about the conversion of the Christians and atheists?

Corwin

You might start with Aphrodite.

Temple prostitution will draw crowds, generally speaking. Set up a temple of Dionysyus next door...

daemon

Given your admitted lack of anything rational, I'd suggest magic. Perhaps if you wish hard enough...

Krieger

All your Roman gods are belong to me.

Perchance

While I am unlikely to convert to either Hellenismos or the Religio Romana, I think you have a powerful tool in the Greek and Roman mythology (or Graeco-Roman, if you think of them as the same thing), and the languages. Some people (including me) consider these myths more beautiful and poetic than the Bible's myths, which could attract others. And I know of more people who either have learned or are learning Greek and Latin than Aramaic, or Hebrew. Even the small college I attended (less than a 1000 students for half the time I was there) offered classes in Latin.

Of course, if you did use the mythology, then you might start slipping down the slippery road of apologetics...

-Perchance.

Anunnaki

I agree with what Perchance said.

Are you familiar with the work of Joseph Campbell?

Ojuice5001

Good ideas, everyone. Promotion of Greco-Roman myths and philosophy, magic, and emphasis on Aphrodite/Venus are all good ideas. And what's more, they can be combined quite readily.

The best thoughts came from Perchance. In the other thread, Restoring a realm for Jupiter, he said that the idea of bringing back Jupiter's rule is ethical only if people agree to it voluntarily. That made me think about the fact that there is such a large Christian segment in America and Mexico that would feel threatened by the Roman gods. What can be done about this?

Fact One: Jupiter and crew are quite likable as fictional characters. People's feelings toward the mythology, and other cultural elements, of Rome and Greece are generally favorable, even in this present-oriented culture. So what's the problem?

Fact Two: People generally give little or no consideration to the idea that the Greco-Roman pantheon exists. Why? Some might disagree, but I think the answer is that they are committed to either a rigorous methodology that doesn't allow belief in the gods, or a Christian tradition that is opposed to both the existence of the gods (for the second thousand years that is), and the worship of them even if they did exist.

So it looks like Fact Two needs to be changed, right? I thought that for a long time, but then realized that two other facts, both truisms on this board, change the picture.

Fact Three: Most people would rather be Christians than atheistic skeptics.

Fact Four: In modern times, someone can hold all kinds of different beliefs and still call themselves Christian. For instance, someone could (in principle) consistently be both a worshipper of the Roman gods, and a Basic Christian in Michael Martin's sense.

Therefore, a good strategy is to create or support a form of Christianity that has the potential to develop into Roman or Greek paganism. Apollo, Athena/Minerva, and others tried to do this with Gnostic Christianity, but Gnosticism does not exist in an obtrusive enough form today. Some Christians have a Gnostic-like worldview, but there is no denomination or movement that advocates Gnosticism. Maybe there will be, before too long; then again, maybe not. Of course, there are more ways for Christianity to be pagan-friendly than just Gnosticism, but it is not obvious that such ways are actual at present.

A naive way to do this would be to simply announce that you are both a Christian and a pagan. Some people do this, but the problem is that there are too many strict scripturalists who see this as nonsense, and Christians in general listen to them. No, something more gradual is needed.

So there are two problems: The raw material in Christianity is in scant supply, and 30% of the canonical Bible is anti-pagan polemic. Both problems are significant, but not insuperable. Christianity is constantly changing, on the one hand; and on the other hand, if Christians can have no problem with evolution, eating pork, working on the Sabbath, and allowing homosexuality, it must be possible to get them to worship the first gods to make Europe a great place to live.

I've got to think about what all this means.

Perchance

Found<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/sannion/Jesus_Christ_Hellene.html" target="_blank"> this</a> on an interesting Hellenismos website, about a way of admitting Jesus Christ into the Hellenic Pantheon, using details from both Greek mythology and the Bible.

Of course, I doubt that many Christians would agree to it .

-Perchance.

Eudaimonist

OJ, have you read The Christians as the Romans Saw Them, by Wilken?

According to the book, the Roman pagans called religions less rational than their paganism "superstitions". They believed that superstitions had gods that acted in cruel and arbitrary ways, and they theorized that this produced more atheists, since rational people will notice the obvious contradictions and immoralities in superstitions, and will be repulsed by them (not knowing where else to go than atheism).

If your religion's metaphysics and mythology is more apparently rational than Christianity, perhaps it would have some edge.

Also, you could try to pitch your religion as more female-friendly, and more expressive of different aspects of human life.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>

Egoinos

Give them free booze and recruit pretty women.

That'll get you members

On a more serious note, nick the ideas of Christian evangelists. They only use serious apologetics on people who challenge them, or people they know to be atheists. When someone gives you a tract on the street, it doesn't deal with the issues that I for one consider to be the stumbling points of Christianity.

Basically, produce some tracts (or a website) which are full of good graphics, stick a little humour in there, and present the basics of your religion. Don't bother with questions such as "do the gods exist" but emphasise the culture that came with them, and the myths that most of us grew up with about them. Make it pretty, make it simple, make it attractive - I reckon you'll only get a small percentage of people who will demand answers for more serious questions. When it comes to whether the gods exist, of course, you can just use that old Christian argument - the design argument. It doesn't prove your gods exist anymore than it proves theirs does, but that doesn't bother them, so why should it bother you?

--Egoinos--

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Egoinos ]</p>