Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crazyfingers · 01-17-2003, 04:23 PM

This letter appeared in my town paper today.

I think that I'll need to reply.

Any tips / items / suggestions?

Quote:

Letter: Another perspective on racism

Friday, January 17, 2003

To the editor: "Racism" today in America, with all of its historical evils is not the cancer that sexual immorality and violence are.

As a black woman, my perspective is that we as a nation need a revelation. The word "racism" is the scud missile fired by liberals in government at any conservative, i.e. President Bush's Judicial nominee, Judge Charles Pickering, and anyone else with Biblical moral values; to the demise of this country.

Racism is the "scare" word played by liberals to keep most black voters in their hip-pockets. In so doing, they use black voters at will to keep them in power in order to legislate their vile and sometimes anti-American agendas into law.

Our country needs a swift turn about to decency, but it will be difficult with the Clinton administration's influence still spreading. That influence is reaching from elementary schools to school buses where Clinton style sexual activities are performed even by little children and teens. (Please read: "Sex According to God," by Kay Arthur, WaterBrook Publishers). And, as we know, violence is epidemic because American lost more than it thought when God was expelled from our public life whereby schools became war zones.

However, even the ugly spirits of violence, racism and sexual immorality can be cured under the teaching and preaching of God's pure word because it works. The Ten Commandments once more must be respected. Proverbs 15:3 says: "The eyes of the Lord are in everyplace, seeing the evil and the good." We will answer for our actions sooner or later because God is a good Bookkeeper.

XXX XXX

Sharon

BTW, I have tangled with this person before. Last time she replied to me and basically threatoned me with hell in print.

Here is the old topic on that one.

Toto · 01-17-2003, 04:49 PM

This woman sounds like a nutcase. Does she think people only started to have *oral sex* because they heard about Bill Clinton doing it??? For most people, reading an opinion like that would tend to discredit the entire letter.

But since she does say that removing god from the public schools led to violence, you could try to rebut that idea.

crazyfingers · 01-17-2003, 05:04 PM

That is the part that I'm going to focus on Toto - at least the strawman about having taken god out of public life and the dangers of allowing goverment to have a say in matters religious, which she suggests that she wantes in Judge Pickering.

I'd love to have a useful fact about Pickering in that regard. My town is over 50% jewish and very liberal. I have the feeling that the idea of having a xian fundie judge promoting a perticular christian view a government policy would not be looked on well at all.

GaryP · 01-17-2003, 05:44 PM

CF--

I might focus on the "return to decency" point.

It always amazes me that some equate the days before "God was kicked out of schools" as the great moral time in our history.

Before that court decision there was no vote for women, slavery, civil war, cold war, at least one great depression, more virulent strains of diseases, Jim Crow laws and lynchings, etc.

Perhaps "throwing god out" was just what this country needed.

crazyfingers · 01-17-2003, 06:51 PM

Is this too harsh a reply? I don't want to turn too many people off.

**********************************

This is a reply to XXX XXX letter to the editor from Friday, January 17, 2003 where she states that �God was expelled from our public life whereby schools became war zones�. This is what is called a straw man argument; to misrepresent the actual situation in order to make it easier to argue against. The fact is that our American traditions require that the Government, and by extension the public schools, must not take sides on religious issues. To allow otherwise would be to give to the government, and by that the majority in power, the right to decide what will be regarded as THE correct religious point of view. We do not allow the Government to make those choices because each individual has the right to make and speak his or her own views on matters of religion.

XXX XXX suggests that �Our country needs a swift turn about to decency�. But what decency? Her comment immediately follows her accusation that �liberals� try to �to legislate their vile and sometimes anti-American agendas into law.� I beg your pardon XXX XXXX, but your interest in "returning" this whole country to your particular view of the Bible and your claim that liberals are anti-American is frightening. It reminds me of the days when Jim Crow laws were in full force, women had to stay in the kitchen and non-Christians and liberals were blacklisted by the House Un-American Activities Committee. Return to decency indeed.

GaryP · 01-17-2003, 07:10 PM

I think the tone is reasoned and well written. I especially like the part explaining why govt. should not be allowed to potentially influence individual religious beliefs.

Just Another Infidel · 01-17-2003, 07:42 PM

I'm not much for debate, and I'm basically an academic lightweight (sort of like the average newspaper reader), but I'd drop the strawman reference. Your objective is to discredit her statement, not to give a lesson on debate.

So,

Quote:

This is what is called a straw man argument; to misrepresent the actual situation in order to make it easier to argue against.

, maybe becomes, XXX XXX is (conveniently???) misrepresenting the facts.....

my $.02.

JAI

crazyfingers · 01-18-2003, 09:35 AM

OK, one more edit

I'll probably send this over the weekend if there are no other good suggestions

*****************************

This is a reply to XXXX letter to the editor from Friday, January 17, 2003 where she states that �God was expelled from our public life whereby schools became war zones�. This is of course the code word of the right wing Christian fundamentalists and what it really means is that they want the power to control what messages the government puts out on what is and what is not the preferred religious belief. The fact is that our American traditions and our constitution require that the Government, and by extension the public schools, must not take sides on religious issues. To allow otherwise would be to give to the government, and by that the majority in power, the right to decide what will be regarded as THE correct religious point of view. We do not allow the Government to make those decision because each individual has the right to make and speak his or her own views on matters of religion.

XXXX suggests that �Our country needs a swift turn about to decency� and thinks that Judge Pickering should be elevated to the US Court of Appeals. But what decency? Judge Pickering is known for changing the sentence that he gives to convicted criminals based on whether he happens to agree or disagree with the criminals religious point of view!

XXXX accuses �liberals� of trying �to legislate their vile and sometimes anti-American agendas into law.� I beg your pardon XXXX , but your interest in "returning" this whole country to your and Judge Pickerings� particular view of the Bible and your claim that liberals are anti-American is frightening. It reminds me of the days when Jim Crow laws were in full force, women stayed in the kitchen and non-Christians and liberals were blacklisted by the House Un-American Activities Committee. Return to decency indeed.

Toto · 01-18-2003, 11:33 AM

Where did you get the part about "Judge Pickering is known for changing the sentence that he gives to convicted criminals based on whether he happens to agree or disagree with the criminals religious point of view! "

I don't recall that, but it might be true. The one sentence he was charged with changing was the cross-burning case, where his excuse was "disparity in sentencing".

crazyfingers · 01-18-2003, 03:06 PM

Toto, This is where I found it.

Quote:

Pickering addressed the MBC annual convention in 1984, where he declared that the Bible should be "recognized as the absolute authority by which all conduct of man is judged." While on the bench, Pickering developed a reputation for lecturing defendants and recommending that they become involved in organized religion. He suggested to one defendent in United States V. Halt that he became involved in a Christian prison ministry. In another case, he told a defendant that his life "has indeed epitomized the work of the devil" (United States v. Gillich). In the summer of 2001, he reduced the sentence of one defendant involved in a drug related crime who said he had spent time "seeking God, reading and studying God's word," (United States v. Edmond C. Brown). (Source: American Atheists' AANEWS, March 15)

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01-17-2003, 04:49 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This woman sounds like a nutcase. Does she think people only started to have oral sex because they heard about Bill Clinton doing it??? For most people, reading an opinion like that would tend to discredit the entire letter. But since she does say that removing god from the public schools led to violence, you could try to rebut that idea.

01-17-2003, 05:04 PM	#3
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	That is the part that I'm going to focus on Toto - at least the strawman about having taken god out of public life and the dangers of allowing goverment to have a say in matters religious, which she suggests that she wantes in Judge Pickering. I'd love to have a useful fact about Pickering in that regard. My town is over 50% jewish and very liberal. I have the feeling that the idea of having a xian fundie judge promoting a perticular christian view a government policy would not be looked on well at all.

01-17-2003, 05:44 PM	#4
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	CF-- I might focus on the "return to decency" point. It always amazes me that some equate the days before "God was kicked out of schools" as the great moral time in our history. Before that court decision there was no vote for women, slavery, civil war, cold war, at least one great depression, more virulent strains of diseases, Jim Crow laws and lynchings, etc. Perhaps "throwing god out" was just what this country needed.

01-17-2003, 06:51 PM	#5
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	Is this too harsh a reply? I don't want to turn too many people off. ********************************** This is a reply to XXX XXX letter to the editor from Friday, January 17, 2003 where she states that �God was expelled from our public life whereby schools became war zones�. This is what is called a straw man argument; to misrepresent the actual situation in order to make it easier to argue against. The fact is that our American traditions require that the Government, and by extension the public schools, must not take sides on religious issues. To allow otherwise would be to give to the government, and by that the majority in power, the right to decide what will be regarded as THE correct religious point of view. We do not allow the Government to make those choices because each individual has the right to make and speak his or her own views on matters of religion. XXX XXX suggests that �Our country needs a swift turn about to decency�. But what decency? Her comment immediately follows her accusation that �liberals� try to �to legislate their vile and sometimes anti-American agendas into law.� I beg your pardon XXX XXXX, but your interest in "returning" this whole country to your particular view of the Bible and your claim that liberals are anti-American is frightening. It reminds me of the days when Jim Crow laws were in full force, women had to stay in the kitchen and non-Christians and liberals were blacklisted by the House Un-American Activities Committee. Return to decency indeed.

01-17-2003, 07:10 PM	#6
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	I think the tone is reasoned and well written. I especially like the part explaining why govt. should not be allowed to potentially influence individual religious beliefs.

01-18-2003, 09:35 AM	#8
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	OK, one more edit I'll probably send this over the weekend if there are no other good suggestions ***************************** This is a reply to XXXX letter to the editor from Friday, January 17, 2003 where she states that �God was expelled from our public life whereby schools became war zones�. This is of course the code word of the right wing Christian fundamentalists and what it really means is that they want the power to control what messages the government puts out on what is and what is not the preferred religious belief. The fact is that our American traditions and our constitution require that the Government, and by extension the public schools, must not take sides on religious issues. To allow otherwise would be to give to the government, and by that the majority in power, the right to decide what will be regarded as THE correct religious point of view. We do not allow the Government to make those decision because each individual has the right to make and speak his or her own views on matters of religion. XXXX suggests that �Our country needs a swift turn about to decency� and thinks that Judge Pickering should be elevated to the US Court of Appeals. But what decency? Judge Pickering is known for changing the sentence that he gives to convicted criminals based on whether he happens to agree or disagree with the criminals religious point of view! XXXX accuses �liberals� of trying �to legislate their vile and sometimes anti-American agendas into law.� I beg your pardon XXXX , but your interest in "returning" this whole country to your and Judge Pickerings� particular view of the Bible and your claim that liberals are anti-American is frightening. It reminds me of the days when Jim Crow laws were in full force, women stayed in the kitchen and non-Christians and liberals were blacklisted by the House Un-American Activities Committee. Return to decency indeed.

01-18-2003, 11:33 AM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Where did you get the part about "Judge Pickering is known for changing the sentence that he gives to convicted criminals based on whether he happens to agree or disagree with the criminals religious point of view! " I don't recall that, but it might be true. The one sentence he was charged with changing was the cross-burning case, where his excuse was "disparity in sentencing".

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