Vicar Philip

Now, now, brettc and Helen, can't we all just get along?!?

As I've said before, I have found lots of good advice from everyone, including Helen. Helen seems to be a pretty level-headed theist.

I picked my son up from his buddy's house after work tonight, and on the way home he asked me if my wife had told me what they discussed. He was very upset, and that's something else I forgot to mention earlier. My wife seemed a little upset because after my son admitted I had talked to him, he didn't want her to tell me. She was unhappy because he was trying to protect me! I was more than a little pissed about that, that she would actually be upset about THAT.

She's concerned now that "Mommy's beliefs will seem wacky compared to yours!" Gee, do ya think?? This is the part that just kills me, she knows that most Christian beliefs simply do not make sense, yet she'll throw away our marriage to defend them! My only consolation is that once the kids get old enough, they can weigh the evidence and decide for themselves. My son who is more scientifically-inclined will, I'm afraid, break Mommy's heart, because he is skeptical and a smart-ass just like me. Genetics strikes again!

Now I am sort of dreading going to this church I used to be so excited about, having all the enthusiastic greeters flock around the fresh meat, desperate to get us to Praise Cheesus. I believe it was Intensity who said just go along with it, smiling, and be a little atheist spy. I kind of like that idea. And no, I won't wear my atheism on my sleeve, as someone else suggested; I don't particularly want to be the source of an Exorcism! Where's the green pea soup??

Blankman

For the record, that was me. No biggy. Just try not to giggle during the surmon. It's a dead give away. LOL. Just sit back, smile, and enjoy the show. Report anything unusual back to us. Good luck on your mission.

Vicar Philip

Sorry Blankman,

I was too lazy to flip back a few pages.

Thanks for the correction.

Darren

Ted Hoffman

xxian : I believe it was Intensity who said just go along with it, smiling, and be a little atheist spy. I kind of like that idea...

Intensity : No, it wasn't me.
Oh, I have noticed Blankman has helped clear that up.

xxian : I did some "soul"-searching last night, and decided I really don't want to lose my wife and kids. Divorce is a very messy proposition with four kids the ages mine are, not to mention the financial implications. So I told her that I would agree to go to this church if she would drop the divorce threats. ...

...So we're at a tentative truce right now...
...I hope to hell so, I can't take all this stress. It's starting to affect my job performance...

Intensity : Grrr! First, people are different. You are you and cant be me etc. I am a "forceful" kind of person so my sentiments might not seem acceptable to you but I will go ahead and give them. You can reject them without any qualms whatsoever.

I don't think this is a truce. You have simply caved in to her pressure and threats. The other Michael said you dont owe us anything so you should not cite this "sold out" nonsense. I disagree. I think you have sold out, but in the sense that you have not stood up for your beliefs. And I dont think its nonsense. You have set a precedent in your own small way. If you have a daughter who knows whats going on behind the scenes, she might make a mental note of all this and one day pull a fast one on her atheist husband .

What advise will your wife give to a woman in a similar situation? Tell her to threaten her husband with divorce to get them to attend church?

You cite "...I really don't want to lose my wife and kids" as your reasons for going to church. Since when do atheists save their marriages by going to church? Where did you get this concept from? It seems she has unduly got to you and has even influenced your way of thinking. And this, IMO, is not good. She has totally freaked you out.

She made overbearing demands and gave you your options. You succumbed to her threats. You had no choice in the matter. That is not a truce. The has imposed her will upon you. That is dictatorship in force. Unless you think she has done you a favour by allowing (as if you need her permission) you to share your thoughts with your children.

Lets review some earlier comments from posters here:

AbbyNormal You need to think about bretts comment below:
brettc I think its a cop-out and a bad decision. Its the path of the least resistance, the easy way out. I think its craven.

You have desires and beliefs but she has subjugated you and you are toeing the line.
You have to decide whether you intend to play second fiddle in your marriage and for how long. You make one concession, be ready to make plenty of others soon. All she has to do is press the "divorce" button and you rush to obey. What will your son think seeing you attending church after having concluded that his mum's beliefs are "wacky"? Hypocrite? Mummy is in charge?

If thats the life you intend to live in the name of saving your marriage, so be it. The decision is yours, just remember brettc's advice above. If you pull out, there will be another war, it will affect your performance at work, wear you out, then she will press the "divorce" button and you will cave in and keep attending church.
If you start attending church because you dont want to lose your wife and kids, then when you stop, it will mean you are ready to lose your wife and kids. Its BS.

My 2$, sorry if its a bitter pill.

Buffman

I have been following this discussion and actually composed several replies, but elected not to add them because this is supposed to be SL & "SUPPORT" Forum. However, things only seem headed in the most negative direction possible. So I feel I need to post something for the concerned parties to consider as an alternative to that negative path.

IMHO, from what I have read so far, neither x-xian or his wife know how to effectively communicate with each other.

Part of that inability seems to stem from the fact that he is too new to non-theism to be able to clearly convey to his wife what it is or is not; and she is too conditioned in blind faith belief to be able to understand what Christianity is or is not. So they each allow their emotions to speak for them and further polarize the current conflict. They verbally brutalize each other in a defense mechanism battle.

Neither one seems to comprehend the meaning, or expression, of unconditional love because they have become too wrapped up in their own fears and emotional miasma.

However, what really bothers me is that they now appear to be using their children as ping-pong balls in a highly complex ideological struggle of parental wills/egos that are being rationalized as expressions of true love/integrity.

In my unprofessional opinion, they need immediate counseling by a professional, non-partisan, objective third party. The wife has to learn that atheists are moral people. x-xian has to learn how to separate Christian institutional dogma from Christian moral values. If the two of them can begin to concentrate on communicating exactly what moral/ethical values they wish to pass on to their children, instead of allowing labels to shut down their critical reasoning abilities, they might both discover how much they have in common rather than in disagreement.

HelenM

He probably hates the conflict as much as you. I'm not surprised a ten year old not would not want to say anything that would set his parents against one another. And especially if he's overheard the word 'divorce' .

You probably did say this already - but one thing you can assure him is that you'll never be angry with him for telling the truth...even if it does cause Mom to be angry at you. I'd recommend saying anything you can, to your children, which helps them to know that they are iin no way responsible for any current conflict between you and your wife. That although you're going through a bit of a difficult time in some ways you both love them etc etc. Does that sound too sappy? Seriously, though, I can well imagine a 10 year old getting quite nervous about the marriage and not wanting to do anything to push it towards divorce.

One thing you could say to your wife is that you don't want the kids being nervous about you getting divorced - that you'd like the two of you to sit down with them and say "We're going through a rough time but we want to make this work if at all possible". Because they might be getting quite scared about whether the family is about to fall apart I think they'd appreciate an open talk about the state of things rather than being full of fears but and not wanting to ask questions in case that makes you or your wife angry or makes things worse.

I wish she were more focused on their current emotional well-being and the amount of upheaval divorce would bring into their lives .

I think you're ok because exorcisms generally have to be scheduled in advance . Just make sure your wife hasn't scheduled one unbeknownst to you!

Seriously though, see if you can 'detach emotionally' and regard your attendance as a research study - as information-gathering regarding what your kids will be exposed to. And - the better you know the theology, the more likely you are to be able to show your children exactly where you disagree with it, when the day comes that you are free to discuss it with them. And that day will come.

(And, when you do have negative reactions at church - if you do - think of that as information-gathering too - it's can help you figure out exactly what it is that you don't like. That will assist you in being specific, in any future discussions, which will give you more credibility and demonstrate that your objections to Christianity are well-thought out and substantive)

And...thanks for calling me 'level-headed'!

take care
Helen

HelenM

I think there are two types of people posting on this thread. Or let's say, there are people with two very different viewpoints. There are those who would 'stand up for their beliefs', get divorced and they'd be satisfied with their decision.

And there are also those who would 'stand up for their beliefs', get divorced, and then, coming home to an empty apartment after work - no wife, no kids and think "What have I done??? Was it really worth it???" And for them there would be no satisfaction - only regret.

I like that x-xian is trying to figure out which viewpoint is his, before he says "sure, let's get divorced!" (or acts in a way which seems likely to push things to the point of his wife filing for divorce).

take care
Helen

Vicar Philip

Tell me, Intensity, how many children do you have? Were you present at each and every one of their births? Have you watched them grow from helpless infants to well-adjusted, decent, kind, wonderful kids? Well, I have, and getting a divorce that you seem so in favor of would instantly remove me from all of that.

Of course, I know her subjugating my opinions and quashing whatever I intend to tell the children is wrong, and we have plans to go to a marriage counselor. I don't think she's going to like the outcome, because her "dictatorship" will become very evident to the counselor. I agree with what Buffman presented, that both of our thinking towards our kids needs to change. I am hoping a meeting with a counselor will take a step towards that goal.

I knew my wife was semi-controlling when I married her. So I can fault noone but myself for what is now taking place. Coming forward with my beliefs about something I knew she'd be dead-set against was a big step for me. So yes, everyone, marriage counseling IS in our immediate future.

Darren

pescifish

It's a big step for many of us! And I don't think you should minimize this. If, as you say, you knew up front of her 'controlling' nature, it makes it all the more impressive.

I have great hope that in taking the step to reveal these feelings, bringing the matter to a head and finding this truce temporary solution that continued work (perhaps through the counseling) might convince her that sharing her beliefs is not as important as sharing your lives as a family.

I hope that she values the marriage as much as you obviously do and makes a real effort.

Good luck, x-xian!

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: pescifish ]</p>

HelenM

I'm sure.

Especially if you're from a background where you've never been encouraged to be assertive - not that I would know; I'm just saying.

I hope you can find a marriage counselor you're both willing to go to. I really liked having a place where it was 'safe' to bring up touchy subjects, because you know your spouse will be called on it if they say something totally unreasonable . Of course that does work both ways!

take care
Helen