Freethought & Rationalism Archive

excreationist · 01-19-2002, 07:01 PM

Here's some brain imaging info:
<a href="http://www.hhmi.org/senses/e/e230.htm" target="_blank">fMRI</a>
<a href="http://www.hhmi.org/senses/e/e130.htm" target="_blank">fMRI and music</a>
The thing is that fMRI can only measure things to about 0.45 of a second, but you could still see the areas of the brain that are generally active. At the moment I think you need to insert wires into the head to monitor specific neurons.
Note that I only have a very basic understanding of neuroscience but I've just tried to use it to explain things like consciousness. Anyway, I think that you could see what parts of the brain are active - like when they're counting or singing in their head, or reciting something in their head.
Those experiments have probably already been done, but I don't know what words to search for to find those experiments....

SteveD · 01-20-2002, 07:22 PM

Thanks for the links.

This prompted me to do some other searching and I came across this information <a href="http://mcns10.med.nyu.edu/research/meg_new/meg_new.html" target="_blank">Magnetoencephalography</a> It says that this technology can monitor electrical activity in the brain with a temporal resolution of 1 millisecond(!) with spatial resolution equal to fMRI. I also read a number of abstracts of papers in the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience and came across quite a few that involved brain imaging to monitor language processing and things like that. From what I have read I didn't see anything would give cause to dismiss my idea out of hand.

Steve

excreationist · 01-21-2002, 04:05 AM

Steve, cool... a new word to search for... to find articles I need to know words like that. Basically you'd just monitor people who are counting in their head (a kind of language) or singing in their head or something. Or doing large multiplication problems in their head. (That's a kind of language too)
With that kind of temporal resolution you could probably track the firing patterns of neurons! The other problem is working out their thresholds - that could be done too over time... see what the minimum input you need for the neuron to fire - once you know that then you can begin to simulate it on a computer. Traditional neural network simulations assume that it works in a straightforward way where only connected neurons interact.
But it seems that this isn't the case.
see <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/ai/gasbrain.jsp" target="_blank">New Scientist - Gas on the brain</a>
Basically it is saying that neurons can use gases for long-distance fuzzy communication. I was under the impression that there are about 150 chemical messengers in the brain. I'll probably ask the <a href="http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=3" target="_blank">Straight Dope</a> message board about this sometime. So when gases are involved it gets fuzzier but there would still be general regions which have learnt to handle particular tasks.

rainbow walking · 01-21-2002, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by excreationist:
<strong>Steve, cool... a new word to search for... to find articles I need to know words like that. Basically you'd just monitor people who are counting in their head (a kind of language) or singing in their head or something. Or doing large multiplication problems in their head. (That's a kind of language too)
With that kind of temporal resolution you could probably track the firing patterns of neurons! The other problem is working out their thresholds - that could be done too over time... see what the minimum input you need for the neuron to fire - once you know that then you can begin to simulate it on a computer. Traditional neural network simulations assume that it works in a straightforward way where only connected neurons interact.
But it seems that this isn't the case.
see <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/ai/gasbrain.jsp" target="_blank">New Scientist - Gas on the brain</a>
Basically it is saying that neurons can use gases for long-distance fuzzy communication. I was under the impression that there are about 150 chemical messengers in the brain. I'll probably ask the <a href="http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=3" target="_blank">Straight Dope</a> message board about this sometime. So when gases are involved it gets fuzzier but there would still be general regions which have learnt to handle particular tasks.</strong>

rw: Gives a whole new meaning to the concept of a brain fart

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 01-22-2002, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally:
<strong>JC,
I'm really concerned. Please tell someone about the voices. What might happen if you become extremely angry someday and the voices and/or your thoughts go completely out of control. You never know. I'm sure you don't want to harm yourself or others. There are new medications that can stop all that.

Do you mind if I ask you how old you are and how old you were when you first heard the voices?</strong>

Been away from computers for a few. In DC. Sorry about the turn-around time on this one.

I'm 19 now, and I can recall hearing them first about 3 or four years ago. I was fairly depressed at the time, and they started in on me. I cried a lot then, mostly while I was walking my dog, so I was alone. They hammered my mrecilessly, but I never gave in, not in my anger, hatred or despair.

Ted Hoffman · 01-25-2002, 08:06 AM

Thanks folks for all your contributions. I will now exit this thread because you have provided me with the onfo that I needed.
Thanks Rainbow Walking I hope we will soon meet in these boards and our third encounter, I hope will be a lot more pleasant.

ChurchOfBruce · 01-25-2002, 08:33 AM

I just caught up on this thread, so this is kind of late <G>, but I wanted to comment.

I hear voices all the time. They are not under my control. I also hear music all the time. It is not under my control.

I fully accept that this is some sort of peculiarity in my brain wiring and not anything supernatural.

Now, to one of the other questions asked--can I prove it? In a roundabout way, sort of, yes <G>. With the music one. I got some songs here. I wrote 'em. As far as I'm concerned, if you write songs, that's proof you hear music in your head. Where the hell else do they come from?

As for the voices in my head--I also write fiction, and those are my characters talking. They do *not* speak in *my* voice, most of the time, by the way. This goes back to that "how do you think" thread that someone started. Since I think audially before visually, my character's voices are actually more defined than their physical appearance most of the time.

I've been writing prose, poetry, and songs since I was seven. I'm *used* to this. I'm also well aware that not everyone has the background clutter rattling around their brain like I do <G>. Hey, not everyone's a writer. My brother is a visual artist, and we once discussed this--he doesn't get music in his brain, but he gets frequent, detailed visual images that pop out of nowhere. I don't get those, but I know what he's talking about because I get the music and the character voices. One of his spontaneous visual brain images is now hanging on my wall

.

It makes perfect sense to me that a fiction writer will hear his characters talking to him, that a songwriter will hear music, and that a visual artist will see brain-images. And, yes, writers and such have been attributing these brain rattlings to supernatural forces for centuries. Even non-Christians. It's called a Muse <G>. The difference is most people don't take Muses very seriously--it's just a handy way to describe brain rattlings. I did write an erotic story where the only characters were me and my muse. It's very funny, actually

.

--Frank

Waning Moon Conrad · 01-28-2002, 03:56 AM

I hear my own thoughts as words in my mind. Is it a voice or voices? Yes. Is it hearing voices as in auditory hallucinations? No.

SteveD · 01-28-2002, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by ChurchofBruce

Quote:

I hear voices all the time. They are not under my control. I also hear music all the time. It is not under my control.

I am also a musician and composer. I also "hear" music in my head most of the time. My mind seems to continually try to generate musical ideas. However, this "hearing" is definitely internal. I never feel like the sound is coming in through my ears or that it is coming from some external source.

Steve

sbaii · 01-29-2002, 08:53 AM

Years ago an ex-Christian wrote me his deconversion testimony and he candidly explained about that 'relabelling' process, that what he had thought was 'from God' he decided was his own thoughts after all. So I'm not surprised to read of you saying something very similar.

==================================================
One favorite line from the movie "The Ruling Class":
How do you know you are God?

Because everytime I prayed, I realized I was talking to myself.
- - - - - - - -
One problem fundamentalists have is when they have a doubt, they worry that it may be Satan whispering in their ear.

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01-19-2002, 07:01 PM	#71
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	Here's some brain imaging info: <a href="http://www.hhmi.org/senses/e/e230.htm" target="_blank">fMRI</a> <a href="http://www.hhmi.org/senses/e/e130.htm" target="_blank">fMRI and music</a> The thing is that fMRI can only measure things to about 0.45 of a second, but you could still see the areas of the brain that are generally active. At the moment I think you need to insert wires into the head to monitor specific neurons. Note that I only have a very basic understanding of neuroscience but I've just tried to use it to explain things like consciousness. Anyway, I think that you could see what parts of the brain are active - like when they're counting or singing in their head, or reciting something in their head. Those experiments have probably already been done, but I don't know what words to search for to find those experiments....

01-20-2002, 07:22 PM	#72
SteveD Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 118	Thanks for the links. This prompted me to do some other searching and I came across this information <a href="http://mcns10.med.nyu.edu/research/meg_new/meg_new.html" target="_blank">Magnetoencephalography</a> It says that this technology can monitor electrical activity in the brain with a temporal resolution of 1 millisecond(!) with spatial resolution equal to fMRI. I also read a number of abstracts of papers in the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience and came across quite a few that involved brain imaging to monitor language processing and things like that. From what I have read I didn't see anything would give cause to dismiss my idea out of hand. Steve

01-21-2002, 04:05 AM	#73
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	Steve, cool... a new word to search for... to find articles I need to know words like that. Basically you'd just monitor people who are counting in their head (a kind of language) or singing in their head or something. Or doing large multiplication problems in their head. (That's a kind of language too) With that kind of temporal resolution you could probably track the firing patterns of neurons! The other problem is working out their thresholds - that could be done too over time... see what the minimum input you need for the neuron to fire - once you know that then you can begin to simulate it on a computer. Traditional neural network simulations assume that it works in a straightforward way where only connected neurons interact. But it seems that this isn't the case. see <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/ai/gasbrain.jsp" target="_blank">New Scientist - Gas on the brain</a> Basically it is saying that neurons can use gases for long-distance fuzzy communication. I was under the impression that there are about 150 chemical messengers in the brain. I'll probably ask the <a href="http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=3" target="_blank">Straight Dope</a> message board about this sometime. So when gases are involved it gets fuzzier but there would still be general regions which have learnt to handle particular tasks.

01-25-2002, 08:06 AM	#76
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Thanks folks for all your contributions. I will now exit this thread because you have provided me with the onfo that I needed. Thanks Rainbow Walking I hope we will soon meet in these boards and our third encounter, I hope will be a lot more pleasant.

01-25-2002, 08:33 AM	#77
ChurchOfBruce Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere in Massachusetts Posts: 141	I just caught up on this thread, so this is kind of late <G>, but I wanted to comment. I hear voices all the time. They are not under my control. I also hear music all the time. It is not under my control. I fully accept that this is some sort of peculiarity in my brain wiring and not anything supernatural. Now, to one of the other questions asked--can I prove it? In a roundabout way, sort of, yes <G>. With the music one. I got some songs here. I wrote 'em. As far as I'm concerned, if you write songs, that's proof you hear music in your head. Where the hell else do they come from? As for the voices in my head--I also write fiction, and those are my characters talking. They do not speak in my voice, most of the time, by the way. This goes back to that "how do you think" thread that someone started. Since I think audially before visually, my character's voices are actually more defined than their physical appearance most of the time. I've been writing prose, poetry, and songs since I was seven. I'm used to this. I'm also well aware that not everyone has the background clutter rattling around their brain like I do <G>. Hey, not everyone's a writer. My brother is a visual artist, and we once discussed this--he doesn't get music in his brain, but he gets frequent, detailed visual images that pop out of nowhere. I don't get those, but I know what he's talking about because I get the music and the character voices. One of his spontaneous visual brain images is now hanging on my wall . It makes perfect sense to me that a fiction writer will hear his characters talking to him, that a songwriter will hear music, and that a visual artist will see brain-images. And, yes, writers and such have been attributing these brain rattlings to supernatural forces for centuries. Even non-Christians. It's called a Muse <G>. The difference is most people don't take Muses very seriously--it's just a handy way to describe brain rattlings. I did write an erotic story where the only characters were me and my muse. It's very funny, actually . --Frank

01-28-2002, 03:56 AM	#78
Waning Moon Conrad Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Victoria. Australia Posts: 1,417	I hear my own thoughts as words in my mind. Is it a voice or voices? Yes. Is it hearing voices as in auditory hallucinations? No.

01-29-2002, 08:53 AM	#80
sbaii Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: big bad Deetroit Posts: 2,850	Years ago an ex-Christian wrote me his deconversion testimony and he candidly explained about that 'relabelling' process, that what he had thought was 'from God' he decided was his own thoughts after all. So I'm not surprised to read of you saying something very similar. ================================================== One favorite line from the movie "The Ruling Class": How do you know you are God? Because everytime I prayed, I realized I was talking to myself. - - - - - - - - One problem fundamentalists have is when they have a doubt, they worry that it may be Satan whispering in their ear.

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