Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spacedOut · 08-10-2003, 06:18 AM

From the AP - Europe wire:

Pope Urges Prayer for Rain in Europe

CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy - Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II urged people to pray for rain Sunday to ease Europe's seemingly relentless heat wave and expressed worry about the wildfires devouring much of the continent's woodlands.

"Vast fires have developed in these days in several nations in Europe, with particular intensity in Portugal, sparking deaths and enormous danger to the environment," the pope told a crowd of pilgrims and tourists in the courtyard of his summer residence in the hills outside of Rome.

"It is a worrisome emergency which, fed by persistent drought as well as human responsibility, puts at risk the environmental heritage, a precious good for entire humanity," the pope said.

"I invite all to join in my prayers for the victims of this calamity, and I exhort all to raise to the Lord fervent entreaties so that he may grant the relief of rain to the thirsty earth," John Paul said.

Maybe the "floodgates of heaven" (Gen. 7) are stuck...

If there is an intervening god, wouldn't he already know that Europe needs rain? So, why would prayers make a difference in this case? Is the Pope suggesting that the prayers will change god's mind, or will they annoy god to the point that he will send rain just to shut everybody up?

Or maybe god sent rain, but Satan intercepted it to water his own lawn in hell...

sakrilege · 08-10-2003, 06:26 AM

What is disgusting is that when it does finally rain, which is inevitable, they will claim victory.

emotional · 08-10-2003, 09:04 AM

Quote:

"I invite all to join in my prayers for the victims of this calamity, and I exhort all to raise to the Lord fervent entreaties so that he may grant the relief of rain to the thirsty earth," John Paul said.

Isn't it wonderful to see how Homo sapiens has advanced through the ages? I suggest sacrificing a few lambs to the rain-god. The sweet savour of blood ought to bring about a change.

Armchair dissident · 08-10-2003, 10:19 AM

Quote:

If there is an intervening god, wouldn't he already know that Europe needs rain? So, why would prayers make a difference in this case? Is the Pope suggesting that the prayers will change god's mind, or will they annoy god to the point that he will send rain just to shut everybody up?

Maybe god just has a very short attention span. What with an infinite universe, perhaps he's just popped over to the andromeda galaxy to create a spider with a hideously long neck that can eat pears from the tops of trees? (But not apples mind you - you know how god feels about aples).

See, if you shout loud enough, he may just remember where, among the millions of planets, he left the human race. God, being a male (apparently) there's no-one to ask directions from.

Probably turned left at the crab nebula again....

sakrilege · 08-10-2003, 10:20 AM

Gen 8:20-22__ And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

I think god may want burnt offerings.

Also, the last verse seems to indicate that he would not disrupt farming after the flood. Another promise broken.

Armchair dissident · 08-10-2003, 10:22 AM

Quote:

I think god may want burnt offerings.

I had a roast chicken this afternoon - do you think that counts?

Abacus · 08-10-2003, 10:23 AM

If God controls the weather, it kind of makes meteorology a pointless subject, doesn't it?

Mageth · 08-10-2003, 11:06 AM

Coincidentally, just this morning I was reading a chapter about magical and religious superstitions in regards to the weather/rain in Sir James George Fraser's The Golden Bough: A Study in Magic and Religion (it can be found online here).

Here is an interesting, and I think rather amusing, account of the actions of some Catholics in Europe, not that long ago, in the midst of a prolonged drought:

Quote:

The reader may smile at the meteorology of the Far East; but precisely similar modes of procuring rain have been resorted to in Christian Europe within our own lifetime. By the end of April 1893 there was great distress in Sicily for lack of water. The drought had lasted six months. Every day the sun rose and set in a sky of cloudless blue. The gardens of the Conca d;Oro, which surround Palermo with a magnificent belt of verdure, were withering. Food was becoming scarce. The people were in great alarm. All the most approved methods of procuring rain had been tried without effect. Processions had traversed the streets and the fields. Men, women, and children, telling their beads, had lain whole nights before the holy images. Consecrated candles had burned day and night in the churches. Palm branches, blessed on Palm Sunday, had been hung on the trees. At Solaparuta, in accordance with a very old custom, the dust swept from the churches on Palm Sunday had been spread on the fields. In ordinary years these holy sweepings preserve the crops; but that year, if you will believe me, they had no effect whatever. At Nicosia the inhabitants, bare-headed and bare-foot, carried the crucifixes through all the wards of the town and scourged each other with iron whips. It was all in vain. Even the great St. Francis of Paolo himself, who annually performs the miracle of rain and is carried every spring through the market-gardens, either could not or would not help. Masses, vespers, concerts, illuminations, fire-works;nothing could move him. At last the peasants began to lose patience. Most of the saints were banished. At Palermo they dumped St. Joseph in a garden to see the state of things for himself, and they swore to leave him there in the sun till rain fell. Other saints were turned, like naughty children, with their faces to the wall. Others again, stripped of their beautiful robes, were exiled far from their parishes, threatened, grossly insulted, ducked in horse-ponds. At Caltanisetta the golden wings of St. Michael the Archangel were torn from his shoulders and replaced with wings of pasteboard; his purple mantle was taken away and a clout wrapt about him instead. At Licata the patron saint, St. Angelo, fared even worse, for he was left without any garments at all; he was reviled, he was put in irons, he was threatened with drowning or hanging. ;Rain or the rope!; roared the angry people at him, as they shook their fists in his face.

Ojuice5001 · 08-10-2003, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abacus
If God controls the weather, it kind of makes meteorology a pointless subject, doesn't it?

No, not the way I think of it. Assuming determinism is false (an assumption which has been neither proved nor disproved), the laws of meteorology are incomplete; you could have a complete knowledge of them and still not be able to predict the weather. Similarly, even if you understood the details of how the gods control the weather, you still couldn't know what the weather would be without knowing the laws of meteorology, because other factors than the gods' actions are involved.

Ojuice5001 · 08-10-2003, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Isn't it wonderful to see how Homo sapiens has advanced through the ages? I suggest sacrificing a few lambs to the rain-god. The sweet savour of blood ought to bring about a change.

I embrace the connections between modern and ancient religion, and don't think they are false or otherwise undesirable. The past is a powerful force in the universe, and it has a pretty consistent rate of overcoming that which opposes it.

Postverta forever!

I always said the Catholic Church was the best form of Abrahamic religion.

08-10-2003, 06:18 AM	#1
spacedOut Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 104	Pope Urges Prayers for Rain From the AP - Europe wire: Pope Urges Prayer for Rain in Europe CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy - Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II urged people to pray for rain Sunday to ease Europe's seemingly relentless heat wave and expressed worry about the wildfires devouring much of the continent's woodlands. "Vast fires have developed in these days in several nations in Europe, with particular intensity in Portugal, sparking deaths and enormous danger to the environment," the pope told a crowd of pilgrims and tourists in the courtyard of his summer residence in the hills outside of Rome. "It is a worrisome emergency which, fed by persistent drought as well as human responsibility, puts at risk the environmental heritage, a precious good for entire humanity," the pope said. "I invite all to join in my prayers for the victims of this calamity, and I exhort all to raise to the Lord fervent entreaties so that he may grant the relief of rain to the thirsty earth," John Paul said. Maybe the "floodgates of heaven" (Gen. 7) are stuck... If there is an intervening god, wouldn't he already know that Europe needs rain? So, why would prayers make a difference in this case? Is the Pope suggesting that the prayers will change god's mind, or will they annoy god to the point that he will send rain just to shut everybody up? Or maybe god sent rain, but Satan intercepted it to water his own lawn in hell...

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08-10-2003, 06:26 AM	#2
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	What is disgusting is that when it does finally rain, which is inevitable, they will claim victory.

08-10-2003, 10:20 AM	#5
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	Gen 8:20-22__ And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease. I think god may want burnt offerings. Also, the last verse seems to indicate that he would not disrupt farming after the flood. Another promise broken.

08-10-2003, 10:23 AM	#7
Abacus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Dakota Posts: 2,214	If God controls the weather, it kind of makes meteorology a pointless subject, doesn't it?

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