Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cricketkitty8 · 03-25-2003, 01:26 AM

Okay we will start here..... :banghead:

I was raised in a variety of christian religions.
(baptist, methodist, nondenom, etc.)
I was also mormon for a while, and pagan for a bit.

I understand the fundamentals of the evolutionary process,
but what gets me is an actual beginning....

I cannot see how some "force" could not be involved to create
the beginning of chaos as it may be. (ie the actual forming of
the universe.)

I look at the table of elements and I see singular matter.
If I put Calcium and Chlorine together, I make Calcium Chloride.
Hydrogen and Oxygen to make water.

How can there not be a hand in putting things together to
start the universe rolling? This I cannot see. I have a hard
time seeing the universe as "always was" but instead see a
beginning.

I relate this beginning to everything I know. Life--->death.
I turn my car on, drive, and then turn it off. A beginning is simple.
How there was a beginning, I have no clue.

I don't "really" believe in a god per se, but rather that it is
possible for one to exsist. I have never met any god, nor had a
private conversation with one, so it is kind of hard to see it
exsisting. (nor do i know anyone, i hope, that claims to)

So, can there be a "creation" without a god? Can there be a
beginning? Can there be a force to guide things? How can the
universe just "always be?" I can't buy that. It sounds too much
like, "He is the alpha, and omega. Beginning and End. He always
was and is." How something can always be makes little sense
to me...

Any ideas? =)

keyser_soze · 03-25-2003, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cricketkitty8
Okay we will start here..... :banghead:

I was raised in a variety of christian religions.
(baptist, methodist, nondenom, etc.)
I was also mormon for a while, and pagan for a bit.

I understand the fundamentals of the evolutionary process,
but what gets me is an actual beginning....

I cannot see how some "force" could not be involved to create
the beginning of chaos as it may be. (ie the actual forming of
the universe.)

I look at the table of elements and I see singular matter.
If I put Calcium and Chlorine together, I make Calcium Chloride.
Hydrogen and Oxygen to make water.

How can there not be a hand in putting things together to
start the universe rolling? This I cannot see. I have a hard
time seeing the universe as "always was" but instead see a
beginning.

I relate this beginning to everything I know. Life--->death.
I turn my car on, drive, and then turn it off. A beginning is simple.
How there was a beginning, I have no clue.

I don't "really" believe in a god per se, but rather that it is
possible for one to exsist. I have never met any god, nor had a
private conversation with one, so it is kind of hard to see it
exsisting. (nor do i know anyone, i hope, that claims to)

So, can there be a "creation" without a god? Can there be a
beginning? Can there be a force to guide things? How can the
universe just "always be?" I can't buy that. It sounds too much
like, "He is the alpha, and omega. Beginning and End. He always
was and is." How something can always be makes little sense
to me...

Any ideas? =)

The problem is, that if you use the "universe as evidence of a greater", or as I like to call it "I can't figure it out so it must have been something else that created this big thing"...then you must be aware that using the same logic, where did the creator come from? To me the size and complexity of the universe and the things in it necessitates that I NOT believe in some "hidden" creator. To me the presence of an appendix, or the features of a human that correlate to those of animals(pubic hair, any hair for that matter) speak too much of design by survival. If adam and eve were created, not knowing that they would be cast out to fend for themselves, why the same protective features of the human body as animals? If we were to always be in eden, such things would be unnecessary. Of course I have vastly simplified it, but I am too bored to write 3 pages on the why of things.

Majestyk · 03-25-2003, 08:24 AM

First you have to get beyond the concept of God. This can be a difficult thing to do if, you were brought up in a culture that constantly reinforced the idea. Start by simply not asking whether or not one exists since, it cannot be proven or disproven. Concentrate on what can be proven or at least supported by empirical evidence.

Realize and accept that you know nothing. Much of our tendency for religion stems from our need to have an explanation for the phenomena we are exposed to. We will naturally develop a conclusion based on what we perceive.

This is why development of the scientific method was such a revolution for humanity. The proposition that nothing is exempt from review in the face of new evidence is not a naturally occurring tendency amongst people.

To admit that we don't know but, only suspect, is not as comforting as firm belief. We feel anxious when we are uncertain of the world. It's natural. Which is why even amongst scientists you will find those that hold on to their conclusions as zealously as any theist.

This is the way I see it now. Tomorrow I may have an entirely different set of conclusions.

cpickett · 03-25-2003, 09:06 AM

I am by no means saying that I have the answers, but here are a few of the current theories on how the universe could come about without a creator:

Can the universe create itself? - "Because spacetimes can be curved and multiply connected, general relativity allows for the possibility of closed timelike curves (CTCs). Thus, tracing backwards in time through the original inflationary state we may eventually encounter a region of CTCs giving no first-cause."

Chaotic Inflationary Theory - " In the Hartle-Hawking version, space-time is "rounded off" prior to the Planck time, so that although the past is finite, there is no edge or beginning point.

This is accomplished by the introduction of imaginary numbers for the time variable in Einstein's gravitational equations, which effectively eliminates the singularity. Hawking sees profound theological implications in the model:

The idea that space and time may form a closed surface without boundary . . . has profound implications for the role of God in the affairs of the universe . . . . So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end. What place, then, for a creator?

Hawking does not deny the existence of God, but he does think his model eliminates the need for a Creator."

According to Einstein's theory of relativity, there is reason to belive that before the big bang there was no time. So while the universe has been here for a finite amount of time, it has been here as long as time has.

As I said, I don't claim that either of those are the end all be all start of the universe, but I do think they go a lot farhter in explaining from where we could have come, rather than a supernatural being.

cricketkitty8 · 03-26-2003, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by keyser_soze
The problem is, that if you use the "universe as evidence of a greater", or as I like to call it "I can't figure it out so it must have been something else that created this big thing"...then you must be aware that using the same logic, where did the creator come from? To me the size and complexity of the universe and the things in it necessitates that I NOT believe in some "hidden" creator. To me the presence of an appendix, or the features of a human that correlate to those of animals(pubic hair, any hair for that matter) speak too much of design by survival. If adam and eve were created, not knowing that they would be cast out to fend for themselves, why the same protective features of the human body as animals? If we were to always be in eden, such things would be unnecessary. Of course I have vastly simplified it, but I am too bored to write 3 pages on the why of things.

Okay, I am talking about before the big bang here. I am not
talking about adam/eve or any kind of human creation by some
god.

What I don't understand is how things could START OUT without
a push of some kind. Whether it be a force I don't know...

I don't believe in the creation detailed in any book. Evolution
has proofs and is logical, whereas 6 days (plus one to rest) does
not make sense. I see everything after the Big Bang and the
Big Bang itself...BUT before that it is difficult to see/understand.

I realize there are many different views on what happened.

Time stopped, sped up, didn't exist yet....etc.

But as to how all this matter got to the point of the Big Bang
without some force seems weird. Egyptian mythology in my
mind had the best explanation (minus the gods). This
was where "Chaos" was and became the earth/planets so to
speak. "Chaos" and a lotus I think (its been a while.) I am
not saying here I believe a flower and "chaos" made a planet.

What I am asking is how chaos, matter, came to the point of
the big bang? Was there no direction? Matter is its rawest
forms has no intelligence, that I am aware of. Is it all just
mere chance? I do not leave much up to chance, I make my
own decisions. I don't wait for the dishes to decide to wash
themselves, I make a choice to wash or leave them there.

I hope that cleared up misconceptions, if not sorry... =)
I will try next time.

GodLessWarrior · 03-26-2003, 06:40 AM

The problem I think you are having is that you think there had to be a start. You said:

Quote:

What I don't understand is how things could START OUT without

You see, there may or may not be a 'before' the big bang. You can't even speak of things logically 'before' that point because all of the words we would use to attempt to explain this have tenses. It is important to understand that space/time began at that moment.

btw.
You don't make a choice to wash your dishes. It is determined by your environment and past memories in conjuction with the physical layout of the neurons in your brain. (True randomness has only ever been shown to exist at the subatomic level (Perhaps )

)

RufusAtticus · 03-26-2003, 07:18 AM

"Chaos" is from Hesiod, an early Greek writer. In fact, at the time of the writing it meant "void." ("Chaos" is also the Anc. Greek word for "yawn.")

Quote:

Hail, children of Zeus! Grant lovely song and
celebrate the holy race of the deathless gods who are for ever,
those that were born of Earth and starry Heaven and gloomy Night
and them that briny Sea did rear. Tell how at the first gods and
earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its
raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above,
and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and
how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honours
amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded
Olympus. These things declare to me from the beginning, ye Muses
who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them
first came to be.

Verily at the first Chaos came to be, but next
wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundations of all (4) the
deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim
Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love),
fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and
overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men
within them. From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night; but
of Night were born Aether (5) and Day, whom she conceived and
bare from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bare starry
Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be
an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought
forth long Hills, graceful haunts of the goddess-Nymphs who dwell
amongst the glens of the hills. She bare also the fruitless deep
with his raging swell, Pontus, without sweet union of love. But
afterwards she lay with Heaven and bare deep-swirling Oceanus,
Coeus and Crius and Hyperion and Iapetus, Theia and Rhea, Themis
and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoebe and lovely Tethys. After
them was born Cronos the wily, youngest and most terrible of her
children, and he hated his lusty sire.

RufusAtticus · 03-26-2003, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by keyser_soze
The problem is, that if you use the "universe as evidence of a greater", or as I like to call it "I can't figure it out so it must have been something else that created this big thing"...

Or what I call, deus ex ignoratia.

Coragyps · 03-26-2003, 09:15 AM

Hey Rufus - got a link to Hesiod? I've got a fundy that says HIS myth is the only one in the world that starts from nothing.

RufusAtticus · 03-26-2003, 11:30 AM

An anotated version of Hesiod's Theogony

03-25-2003, 01:26 AM	#1
cricketkitty8 New Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2	And the universe is how old? Okay we will start here..... :banghead: I was raised in a variety of christian religions. (baptist, methodist, nondenom, etc.) I was also mormon for a while, and pagan for a bit. I understand the fundamentals of the evolutionary process, but what gets me is an actual beginning.... I cannot see how some "force" could not be involved to create the beginning of chaos as it may be. (ie the actual forming of the universe.) I look at the table of elements and I see singular matter. If I put Calcium and Chlorine together, I make Calcium Chloride. Hydrogen and Oxygen to make water. How can there not be a hand in putting things together to start the universe rolling? This I cannot see. I have a hard time seeing the universe as "always was" but instead see a beginning. I relate this beginning to everything I know. Life--->death. I turn my car on, drive, and then turn it off. A beginning is simple. How there was a beginning, I have no clue. I don't "really" believe in a god per se, but rather that it is possible for one to exsist. I have never met any god, nor had a private conversation with one, so it is kind of hard to see it exsisting. (nor do i know anyone, i hope, that claims to) So, can there be a "creation" without a god? Can there be a beginning? Can there be a force to guide things? How can the universe just "always be?" I can't buy that. It sounds too much like, "He is the alpha, and omega. Beginning and End. He always was and is." How something can always be makes little sense to me... Any ideas? =)

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-25-2003, 08:24 AM	#3
Majestyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northeast Ohio Posts: 2,846	First you have to get beyond the concept of God. This can be a difficult thing to do if, you were brought up in a culture that constantly reinforced the idea. Start by simply not asking whether or not one exists since, it cannot be proven or disproven. Concentrate on what can be proven or at least supported by empirical evidence. Realize and accept that you know nothing. Much of our tendency for religion stems from our need to have an explanation for the phenomena we are exposed to. We will naturally develop a conclusion based on what we perceive. This is why development of the scientific method was such a revolution for humanity. The proposition that nothing is exempt from review in the face of new evidence is not a naturally occurring tendency amongst people. To admit that we don't know but, only suspect, is not as comforting as firm belief. We feel anxious when we are uncertain of the world. It's natural. Which is why even amongst scientists you will find those that hold on to their conclusions as zealously as any theist. This is the way I see it now. Tomorrow I may have an entirely different set of conclusions.

03-25-2003, 09:06 AM	#4
cpickett Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arcadia, IN, USA Posts: 308	I am by no means saying that I have the answers, but here are a few of the current theories on how the universe could come about without a creator: Can the universe create itself? - "Because spacetimes can be curved and multiply connected, general relativity allows for the possibility of closed timelike curves (CTCs). Thus, tracing backwards in time through the original inflationary state we may eventually encounter a region of CTCs giving no first-cause." Chaotic Inflationary Theory - " In the Hartle-Hawking version, space-time is "rounded off" prior to the Planck time, so that although the past is finite, there is no edge or beginning point. This is accomplished by the introduction of imaginary numbers for the time variable in Einstein's gravitational equations, which effectively eliminates the singularity. Hawking sees profound theological implications in the model: The idea that space and time may form a closed surface without boundary . . . has profound implications for the role of God in the affairs of the universe . . . . So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end. What place, then, for a creator? Hawking does not deny the existence of God, but he does think his model eliminates the need for a Creator." According to Einstein's theory of relativity, there is reason to belive that before the big bang there was no time. So while the universe has been here for a finite amount of time, it has been here as long as time has. As I said, I don't claim that either of those are the end all be all start of the universe, but I do think they go a lot farhter in explaining from where we could have come, rather than a supernatural being.

03-26-2003, 09:15 AM	#9
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	Hey Rufus - got a link to Hesiod? I've got a fundy that says HIS myth is the only one in the world that starts from nothing.

03-26-2003, 11:30 AM	#10
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	An anotated version of Hesiod's Theogony

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.