Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SignOfTheCross · 07-15-2003, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Well, let�s see what the old dictionary says:Well, let�s see what the old dictionary says:

�Plausible� � having an appearance of truth or reason, credible

�Faith� � belief that is not based on proof or reason

Actually, faith is not defined that way. Faith is belief not based on logical "proof" or material evidence. And if we take your definition of plausible into account, what makes your appearance of error in the Bible any more plausible than a Bible scholar who says there is not? Think about it this way, he is learned, you are ignorant, and I don't mean that in an insultive way, but to point out that your opinion the Bible is in error is no more worthy than the 3 year old who thinks the earth is flat.

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Your belief in Christian Bible inerrancy appears to be based primarily on �faith�. Absent that magical �faith�, I see no logical way to determine that that one particular collection of myths and legends (many of which are of uncertain origin or authorship) is any more �inerrant� or historically accurate than The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Legend of Gilgamesh, The Quran, The Book of Mormon, or any other of several hundred such texts.

Perhaps, but since I am not learned in those texts, I thereby disqualify myself from making judgements pertaining them, until I am qualified to do so.

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You earlier mentioned �perceived� contradictions. Can we assume then that your position is that the Bible only becomes �inerrant� when one properly interprets the words, as opposed to reading them literally? I.e., one must apply certain pre-determined theological filters or interpretations (based on faith) to get to the real �truth�? Couldn�t a similar case be made for all those other texts?

Yes. Yes.

Peace,
SOTC

NZAmoeba · 07-15-2003, 10:38 PM

SOTC, still using your faith goggles to filter out that 'sins of the father' section? still waiting for your reply.

Quote:

�Faith� � belief that is not based on proof or reason

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Actually, faith is not defined that way. Faith is belief not based on logical "proof" or material evidence.

and here you have clearly mis-read what he has said, you say he's wrong, then repeat back exactly what he said as truth. This whole thing would go much smoother if you would just READ what we bloody say.

Quote:

Perhaps, but since I am not learned in those texts, I thereby disqualify myself from making judgements pertaining them, until I am qualified to do so.

Translation: "I'm going to ignore every bible contradiction you churn out, claiming ignorance on both peoples accounts, but i still expect you to prove the bible wrong!!!

:banghead:

The_Unknown_Banana · 07-15-2003, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
Think about it this way, he is learned, you are ignorant, and I don't mean that in an insultive way, but to point out that your opinion the Bible is in error is no more worthy than the 3 year old who thinks the earth is flat.

This is a dodgy issue though. How do you know he is any less learned than your scholar? Perhaps he is just looking at the bible without the belief that it has to be true? How can you call anyone who has a different opinion to a biblical scholar "ignorant"?

The_Unknown_Banana · 07-15-2003, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NZAmoeba
Translation: "I'm going to ignore every bible contradiction you churn out, claiming ignorance on both peoples accounts, but i still expect you to prove the bible wrong!!!

I agree. How can you justify arguing that your God is the one true God, when you don't even know anything of the opposition?

[Editted] - just because :P

SignOfTheCross · 07-15-2003, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Unknown_Banana
I agree. How can anyone be considered envious, but not jealous? Doesn't make sense.

http://www.dictionary.com says the same as how I'd interpret the words, yet it has a seperate definition there for when it's applied to God....

Try and understand the words "envy" and "jealousy" in theological terms. Envy is covetousness (desire for goods not your onw), or one of the seven mortal sins as defined by Catholic theologians, so it would be strange for the Catholic Church to apply such an attribute to God. The Hebrew word for jealousy (qanna) applies to the worship of idols, not the desire of another persons possessions, and an analogy can be drawn from a marriage, where a husband is naturally jealous when his best mate takes out his wife for dinner. This is not envy, since the goods are his own, not that of his neighbour.

Peace,
SOTC

SignOfTheCross · 07-15-2003, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Unknown_Banana
This is a dodgy issue though. How do you know he is any less learned than your scholar? Perhaps he is just looking at the bible without the belief that it has to be true? How can you call anyone who has a different opinion to a biblical scholar "ignorant"?

If he was well versed in the Greek language his opinion might have some validility. If I was to say the earth was flat, you'd say I'm ignorant. The situation is really no different.

Peace,
SOTC

The_Unknown_Banana · 07-15-2003, 11:18 PM

Greek? How would that give him an advantage? Unless you don't believe the English translation of the bible is entirely correct?

I can accept your envy/jealous argument, though I'll admit I think it is merely splitting hairs in an attempt to validate your beliefs. Can't speak for the rest of them here of course

NZAmoeba · 07-15-2003, 11:26 PM

I dissagree with the envy/jealousy idea, but whatever, you have to grab at whatever straw you have to to get that one to work...

now, because you KEEP IGNORING IT i will repost it here

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From Contradiction 34, Are we punished for the sins of others?

Yes. The iniquity of fathers shall be visited upon their children

quote:
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Gen.9:21-25 "And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father .... And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan [Ham's son]; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Ex.20:5 , Dt.5:9 "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Ex.34:7 "Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Num.14:18 "Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Dt.28:18 "Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body."

2 Sam.12:14 "The child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."

2 Sam.21:6-9 Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD .... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD."

1 Kg.2:33 "Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever."

1 Kg.21:29 "Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because hehumbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house."

2 Kg.5:27 "The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever."

Is.14:21 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

Jer.16:10-11 "Wherefore hath the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? ... Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the Lord."

Jer.32:18 "Thou ... recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them."
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No. Each person shall be responsible for himself alone

quote:
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Dt.24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Jer.31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity."

Ezek.18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
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All these phrases use the exact same language, and there are multiple entries based on a similar theme, split hairs over THAT.

I do hope this gets through your faith goggles

SignOfTheCross · 07-15-2003, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Unknown_Banana
Greek? How would that give him an advantage? Unless you don't believe the English translation of the bible is entirely correct?

I can accept your envy/jealous argument, though I'll admit I think it is merely splitting hairs in an attempt to validate your beliefs. Can't speak for the rest of them here of course

The Epistles were written in Greek, and no translation from Greek to English is perfect.

How is it you can accept my envy/jealousy arguement, and at the same time admit all I am doing is trying to validate my beliefs. Rather than rationalise a contradiction, I am looking for the theological point God is trying to make when inconsistencies (not contradictions) seem to arise.

Peace,
SOTC

NZAmoeba · 07-15-2003, 11:30 PM

sigh...
http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=contradiction

Quote:

Synonyms: bucking, conflict, confutation, contravention, defiance, denial, difference, disagreement, discrepancy, dispute, dissension, gainsaying, incongruity, inconsistency, negation, opposite, opposition

Use any sugar-coated language you like, it still means the same thing

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07-15-2003, 11:18 PM	#47
The_Unknown_Banana Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 179	Greek? How would that give him an advantage? Unless you don't believe the English translation of the bible is entirely correct? I can accept your envy/jealous argument, though I'll admit I think it is merely splitting hairs in an attempt to validate your beliefs. Can't speak for the rest of them here of course

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