ReasonableDoubt

I'm interested on people's thoughts about the intrinsic value of humans. On this site I was reading a summary of a debate between Wm. Lane Craig and Paul Kurtz about whether goodness (or morality) without GOd is possible.

Craig repeatedly brought up that if theism was not true, the only alternative was nihilism, because what could the atheist say to show that humans have intrinsic value? How could prejudice in favor of humans (vs. animals) be justified?

Kurtz argued that humanism provides a basis for morality, and did not defend nihilism.

My question is - is Craig assuming something that ought not be assumed? That is, do humans have any more value than animals, and if not, does that bother us? What is value anyway? I read a psychologist's book on self-esteem that said your own value as a person is only what you decide that value is. That value is not measurable, worth is not measurable, worth is only determined by what someone is willing to give it.

As an animal lover who prefers the company of pets to the company of many people, I question whether my pets have less value than people - after all, they have as much value as I determine to give them (a lot!) Does this make me a terrible person?

Curious what others think.

Selsaral

Good question. I don't have anything profound to say, but I do have an observation to make. People seem to judge the worth of animals on how much they feel (emotion-wise). We have very little empathy for fungus and mold. We have some, but still very little for fish, starfish, corals etc. Most of our appreciation for these creatures seems to be for their role in a healthy ecosystem, rather than their value as individuals. We have much much more empathy for complex, emotional creatures such as dogs. A little less so for horses, cows, sheep etc. Human beings seem to have the highest degree of emotion and cognition, and therefore most humans (including atheists) value humans over other life forms (like molds, fish, rats, etc). Isn't that one of the arguments pro-choicers use to defend the 'murder' of the fetus? That it isn't well developed enough to think and feel? I don't know the source of this perception that emotional sophistication = greater individual worth, but it seems well established in theists and atheists. Am I off the wall here?

Philosoft

I don't understand how value is supposed to exist independent of a valuer. The common theistic position that God is the valuer is at least internally consistent, but it renders the phrase "intrinsic value" nonsensical - value is not something we possess inherently (something that humans possess necessarily that is objectively valued by all beings that are capable of assigning value), value is something that God assigns to us based on some or other property we possess that is desirable to him. If that is the case, then humans are apparently on equal footing with God, at least as valuers. The apologist might say something like, "God is a better valuer because he values all humans equally." But this doesn't appear to be true as, doctrinally, there are certainly humans (or at least human qualities) God values more than others.

{added}
Mods, this has a distinct philosophical feel to it. You might consider kicking it up to us in Philosophy.

ReasonableDoubt

The theist argument that God must exist or else humans can't really be worth anything more than an insect seems to be one that is used quite often.

It seems to be a good one- most people believe that humans are worth more than the lower animals. So if confronted with that, they're asked the question, and why is it that humans are worth more than animals? Because God endowed them with souls.

When people live with companion animals, they quickly realize that these animals have different personalities and can exhibit 'human' traits like jealousy, affection, anger, etc.

I don't consider myself a nihilist and would not argue that humans are worth nothing more than mosquitoes, but I do believe that companion animals have 'worth'- it seems that Craig is saying that it is obvious and goes without saying that humans are worth far more than other animals. I would dispute that.

rainbow walking

Humans create their own value. That's part and parcel of ones identity and maturity. Since theists equate identity with a so-called "image of god" they attempt to highjack the process and steer the individual deeper into their infectious cult driven epistomy. It has a particularly alluring appeal to folks with low self esteem who believe they have or are failing in the development of their own self worth.

Silent Acorns

I think that if you look at the natural world as a whole it is clear that there is no great divide that separates us from other animals. It's more like a continum or spectrum. As such, while it is possible to argue that an individual human life has value, and that this value is more than a dog's value, it is not possible (except by theologic fiat) to argue that a human life has intrinsic value and a dog has none.

ReasonableDoubt

Silent Acorn:

Yes, I agree. It has bothered me that my experience with Biblical religious people has been that "man" has dominion over the animals and over the whole world in general. I thought that animals have been devalued b/c for some reason they were not made in the image of God.

Jobar

What is value anyway?

I think that's one of those questions like the one which inspired Robert Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance- "What is quality?"

And Philosoft, I planned to move this one up to your forum before I finished the opening post. ReasonableDoubt, a fine topic!

Paddy

Perhaps it is because we place a certain value on our own subjective existence, and we identify with other human beings, that we make what was initially a subjective worth into a universal worth. So what was initially an ego-centric valuation becomes projected onto all humans because we see the same properties that we possess within them and assume that they have the same "intrinsic" worth.

I think that it also a result of our ego-centricity that we do not ascribe the same value to "lower" animals. However, once we take the time to understand particular animals (eg. your dog), we soon realise that they posses similar characteristics (i.e. emotion, personality) and we subsequently endow (as we are the valuers) them with a level of worth.




Paddy

Keith Russell

Greetings:

I don't believe in intrinsic value.

Period.

Keith.