David M. Payne

Are the Abrahamic religions the geneses of authoritarianism, or is it the other way around?

I reduced this post to focuse more on the lead question.

Its not the belief in God that’s the problem really, it’s the belief in an omnipotent God who is the ultimate authority, and the logical well spring for the authoritarian dogmas that result from that belief, that are the real problem. Or perhaps it is the other way around, and authoritarian dogma gave rise to the Abrahamic religions? Hopefully humanity will grow up, realize that the only being that will ever save us is the human being, and start to deal more realistically with our secular, real world problems. The more we move away from authoritarian dogma, religious and secular, and towards more democratic forms of power, the better off humanity will be.
The Abrahamic religions can never really move away from their authoritarian dogma, and still believe in their concept of God. For that reason we need to take the power to commit evil away from them. I believe over time humanity will do that, as has happened in Europe and other more "enlightened" parts of the world. Like the AI in the movie "The Matrix," who depends on people, the "Copper Tops" for power, so does religion. If we can wean (Unplug) enough people off the tit (Grid) of God/religion, it will fade into the dustbin of history. If we can survive the tendency of these religions to engage in 9/11 type behavior and end up destroying us all first, that is. That’s why I fear religion, not for its tenets, or its belief in a fairy tale being, but for its ability to get massive numbers of people to join in authoritarian regimes and do evil things, things against the best interests of the survival of humanity. Things like 9/11, and whatever comes next.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

wade-w

I think the simple answer to your inital question is a resounding no.

There have been many authoritarian societies in history that had nothing to do with any of the abrahamic religions. A case in point: Rome between Julius Ceasar and Constantine. Also, look at Medieval Japan. VERY authoritarian, and no abrahamic religious influences worth mentioning. So, the same arguments used against the standard xtian position that morality is impossible without their god also work against this idea.

As for the other side of the question, who knows? I tend to think of the abrahamic religions in same way as any other mythology: an attempt by a primitive people to explain the world around them, and their place in it.

David M. Payne

Good point about authoritarian regimes being around long before the Abrahamic religions came on the scene Wade. I suspect that authoritarian regimes were well founded before religious regimes started using the structure. I tend to agree with you as to why religion came into being, but I don't think we can escape the conclusion that the Abrahamic religions are the very epitome of authoritarianism today, especially Islam.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

pilaar

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David M. Payne:
I think we need to do that other thing history shows us doing, evolving as a social species.
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I believe that the movement from authoritarianism to democracy is part of the evolution. I don't believe that Abrahamic religions are the cause of the authoritarianism. I think that the authoritarianism structure is a part of human evolution, a stage in the history of humanity, the religions evolved from that. The religions are a reflection of how people perceive and explain the world to themselves. They create Gods in their own image and base it on their understanding on how things work. Then those in authoritarian power perpetuate the authoritarian belief structures because it is these that help them keep that power. The sharing of power (democracy) is not new, the movement to democracy happened in Greece (approx. 300BC). Also, a number of European tribes too had democratic rule in place at different stages of history. However, the democracy in those days normally did not include women. I don't know about the rest of the world (Aborigianl peoples, Asia etc). Christianity and its authoritarian rule stamped these out for a long period of time. I can't say whether the authoritarianism was originally part of Christianity, or wheter it was brought in later and its texts & teachings misused and misinterpreted in such a way to make it authoritarian and so used as a tool to rule over the people. Apparently there were a number of Christian sects which were not authoritarian, but were destroyed over the time.

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If we look at Marxism and Fascism we see that they have one thing in common with the Abrahamic religions, an authoritarian structure. I don't call Marxism and Fascism a religion, I think they act like a religion in a lot of ways though. I don't think it is a coincidence that these two social structures follow the pattern of religious authoritarian movements. The authors of these doctrines saw that the God/religion concept was very effective in getting its followers to do pretty much what ever the religious leadership told them to do. They just copied much of the structure of religion, replaced God with themselves, and viola, they had their followers responding to their orders just like religious followers follow the orders of their leaders.
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This has been my experience too. I grew up in ex-Yugoslavia (now independent democratic Slovenia), which was ruled by communism (although soft compared to Soviet Union and its occupied countries). I now live in Australia. When I started to attend local Evangelical churches here 3 years ago, it felt like stepping back in time. The authoritarian structure in the church and the way people relate to each other is very similar to what I experienced in the communism. It is a much softer version in the church, propped up with many pretty & deceptive words and explanations, but the basis is very similar and the effects this kind of organisation has on people was very similar.

I also don't think that it is a coincidence that these two social structures followed in the authoritarian religious footsteps. Any kind of authoritarianism is ripe in societies/cultures where people have not yet developed and learned other ways of relating towards others and within the society. Democracy needs a maturity of realising that other peoples opinions/priorities/needs etc are as valid as ones own. It also needs maturity to realise that the ends don't always justify the means. As well as the confidence, self esteem and self respect of ordinary, everyday people.

In Yugoslavia, the rise of comunism and marxism was initially welcomed by many people. Many people believed in a better world and died in order to bring that about. They had enough of the oppressive rule by the old system and by the authoritarian Roman Catholic church. But the people were not yet able to relate in new ways, they only knew authoritarianism well. So they fell back into the same trap. The new order became similar to the old order, it just changed names. It took decades for people to grow up and get rid of this one as well, and I am so so glad that it is gone. One of the reasons this order did not last as long as authoritarian religions is because people can not enter & control human minds. Other people can make you fear and they can control your body but they can not control what goes on in your mind as well as the religions do. Authoritarian religion causes people to internalise the rules and the prohibitions so that each individual acts as his/her own inhibitor. And this is the best controling device that has ever been invented.

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So again, the evil done by some people who were atheists flowed out of their own authoritarian beliefs, Marxism, Fascism etc, and not atheism.
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I agree. The evil was done because of the power. Either to get it or to keep it.


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Its not the belief in God that’s the problem really, it’s the belief in an omnipotent God who is the ultimate authority, and the logical well spring for the authoritarian dogmas that result from that belief, that are the real problem.
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I don't think that the belief in God is the problem, I don't even think that the belief in an omnipotent God who is the ultimate authority is the problem. I think the problem is those humans who believe that they are the authority on who and what God is, what this God wants and how this God wants people to be and do. And the bigger problem still are all the hordes of humans who follow them.

One of the biggest problems with the new and active ultraconservative Christianity is that they will bring up many kids who only know authoritarianism. It takes years to unlearn that. But this at the same time, it is a good sign. The loudnes and the extra activity is a good sign as well, it means that they feel very threatened. Because things are changing. It often gets much worse for a short period of time before the old structures crumble.

pilaar

kctan

It could be an almagation of both authoritarianism itself & religion (not restricted to abrahamic alone) that give rise to the authoritarianism we have today.

A figure of note or worth in a primitive society may give rise to authoritarianism thru the act that such a person did much to aid in the survival of the tribe or group & thus his or her words would be taken as sacred & must be acted upon.

Like wise a person under the scam of being a communicator to the god/s that such a tribe or group worships would inturn be given much power if not authority over the daily activities of the tribe or group so as to keep the god or gods happy.

A safe bet will be to say that both religion & authoritarianism make use of each other to give rise to all the dogmas et al we have today as regards to the abrahamic religions & authoritarianism.

They are both based upon a center of figure or figures which could be god/s depending upon how one sees them. It's more like a chicken & egg thing if you're really interested in which give rise to which.

Arvel Joffi

In many cases, like feudal Japan and ancient Egypt, authoritarian rule was a divine right. It's an ancient concept, it's just not necessarily Abrahamic.

Shake

It seems to me that pilaar has hit upon a good point: religious authoritarianism is more easily accepted by the masses because of differences in the language use to gloss over the same kinds of things happening. Also, in religion, the followers are made to think that there is a reward for doing what they're told, but it's not entirely of this life. This point makes it difficult to refute since no one's ever come back to confirm or deny the rewards (or consequences for that matter).

Some states may have even embraced religious belief realizing the power that it held over its followers. Take a popular religion, make it the state religion, and thus the head of state is now head of the religion. Then there are two reasons to listen to the leader.

Kctan summed this up nicely above.

David M. Payne

Agreed, I thought that the concept of authoritarianism as it relates to the Abrahamic religions is that some men, using an authoritarian structure as a model, created them. It was probably a mix of people that wanted power, and people who wanted to believe that there was a reason for our existence, that death wasn't the end and a lot of other concepts enshrined into the religious dogma we see today.

The problem I see with this religious authoritarian dogma today is that it is so prevalent a guiding principal in so much of humanity these days. With over two thousand years of Abrahamic religious dogma so influential in so many people's minds, they are easy pickings for other authoritarian dogmas and religions. They are already preprogrammed to accept this kind of dogma as being valid. It's not too hard to get many of them to switch over to other kinds of authoritarian dogma, religious or secular.

Pilaar, Kctan and Shake all make excellent points here.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

hal9000

It's definitely a chicken or egg kind of thing. I think it's interesting that Sabine, Radorth, Gemma etc haven't responded to this thread. They and their friends would have to admit that they sheepishly follow an authoritarian dogma, and that’s not something most people would be proud to have to admit to.

I think another interesting question would be, is authoritarianism ever the best or even an acceptable course to follow? After all this place is kind of run along those lines, isn't it? That's not a complaint, just an observation.

kctan

It's not the best nor the worst but still an acceptable course to follow. Remember, as long as it benefits the tribe/group as a whole, it stays.

It does have it's pros & cons but so does every other systems.