Magus55

Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?


Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

xsquid

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magus55

If Jesus wasn't who He said He was, why did Christianity succeed?

If Muhammed wasn't who he said he was, why did Islam succeed?

Billions of people haven't been impacted by Allah. Billions have been impacted by Mohammed, claiming to be sent from Allah but never showing any reason to believe Him. Mohammed never said He was Allah, never performed miracles, nobody died for Mohammed, and He never died and came back from the dead to prove it.

Uhhh...maybe because he ascended alive into heaven, just like Ezekiel, and Elisha?

He offered followers enticing things like sex with virgins and young boys, milk and honey etc., things that the people following Him wanted. He was a scam artist to get followers - just like Hitler.

So where did this "streets of gold" thing come from? Was that original with Muhammed?

Jesus on the other hand, said the road would be tough - and didn't offer anything that caters to the sinful side of humans - the side that presents it self easier. Jesus didn't offer an eternity of sex or virgins. He didn't offer hoards of money. Jesus said we would be persecuted and hated for following him - and we would have to turn away from our sins. Which means giving up all the things we love so much in this world. Now, if Jesus was some fake messiah, who on Earth would follow Him in order to be persecuted, hated, and give up things they love so much?

Anyone who didn't know a fake when they saw one?


Its difficult for everyone else to observe, because they are in love with the world. They like sin, and don't want to give it up - they take the easy road and choose to hide themself from the truth. They are in spiritual denial. Do you think we were all born Christian? We all found God in the Bible and our lives - so obviously He made it possible to happen. That some people choose not to believe, because they can't imagine a world that is outside the explanation of science and human intellect , shows that they don't want to believe - and they aren't open to the possibility. That is your choice. If God made it 100% obvious that He existed, who wouldn't follow Him? Where is the value in that? Everyone would follow God because they know for a fact, if they don't - they will be punished. That isn't love by choice, thats love out of fear and for gain. Faith, or believing without any absolute proof, is what makes belief so valuable. You trust God with your entire life, despite not being positive He is real. It shows a willingness on our part, to devote our lives to Him.

You just answered your own question:
If God made it 100% obvious that he existed, who wouldn't follow him?...Everyone would follow God because they know for a fact, if they don't-they will be punished. You weren't listening in my thread, were you? There are ALWAYS rebels. always!
Some of fear, some from jealousy (something your God is not immune to), some from sheer bloody-mindedness--but they're always there. NO leader has absolute control, ever. Not Nebuchadnezzar, not Stalin, not Mao, not Kim. And no god can ever hope to offer me any eternal life that's better than one day on earth, with the flowers, breezes, sun...and good friends.
"Who are you to defy God's will by making me want to believe?"

To an Unknown God

"If Muhammed wasn't who he said he was, why did Islam succeed?"

This argument becomes circular- it brings up again, enticing lifestyle vs. hardship that the 2 different figures presented, etc.


"Uhhh...maybe because he ascended alive into heaven, just like Ezekiel, and Elisha?"

What is your point. Assume he did. Does that mean we should worship Those OT prophets as well? Jesus was also taken up into heaven alive, but he dies and then rose again first.

"So where did this "streets of gold" thing come from? Was that original with Muhammed?"

Errr... references to the afterlife and references to actual lifestyle are completely different. Seeing those "streets of gold" first requires some serious sacrifice which is definitely repelling.


"Anyone who didn't know a fake when they saw one?"

This still doesn't explain why the disciples would have followed him- goes back to Magus' earlier comments re: why would they die for something they were lying about, etc.


"There are ALWAYS rebels. always!"

Ok sure. EVen assuming so, God making thing 100% obvious would still result in a lot of people following him for the wrong reasons.


"And no god can ever hope to offer me any eternal life that's better than one day on earth, with the flowers, breezes, sun...and good friends."

So now you're deciding what something is like without having experienced it? I heard someone once say it's like trying to explain sex to an 8 year who has just discovered chocolate and them saying, "well, do you get to have chocolate?". Of course the answer is "in most cases, no". Of course the 8 year old's attitude will be "well, it can't be that great if there isn't any chocolate involved."

Seems like most of your arguments are moot points at best...

Magus55

Mohammed never claimed to be anything special other than a prophet, and in fact, Mohammed states that Jesus was the greatest prophet - even more so than him. Mohammed just said, Allah exists and will reward those greatly with sex and milk for whoever smites the enemy and beats their wives etc. He never claimed to be God, and he never performed miracles. He was just good at making people follow him by offering things they'd enjoy - kinda like Hitler.

YHWHtruth

To mag & Unknown

Let me start right off saying that Jesus absolutely NEVER claims equality with God. Why? Let us take a look. Jesus said, in the same context that you are trying to use to declare his triunity with the almighty, "I do not seek praise from men." v. 41 NIV But let us take a look at Jn 5:18. John 5:17-19 says "And for this cause the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work. For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
About this scripture the Ryrie Study Bible says, "The Jews were perfectly aware that Jesus was claiming full deity" Was this what Jesus was doing though? Remember, these were the Jews talking, and they were saying that Jesus was equal to God because he was calling God his Father. But in John 8:41, the Jews said, "we have one Father, God." Were the Jews then, Equal with God also? Exactly how were the Jews "perfectly aware" in this context of anything. They had a few verses prior to this misapplied the Law as for as doing good deeds on the Sabbath. Jesus had said: "it is lawful to do good on the sabbath day". Matt. 12:10-12 In fact, Jesus had few nice words to say about the Jews/Pharisees in toto:
Matt. 15:6 "And ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. But in vain do they worship me, Teaching [as their] doctrines the precepts of men."
Matt. 12:34 "Ye offspring of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."
Matt. 22:29 "But Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."
Now Guys, I hate to belabor the point, but do the Jews, either then or now, believe in a Trinity? You have to admit that a Jewish view of God differs greatly from your Mag, so it is puzzling to me why you, or anyone else would use Jewish though to bolster their claims of a Triune God. Having just read Harris's Jesus as God, why does he not use John5, John 10 or even John 8 for that matter as proof of Jesus as God. My Thayers Lexicons says, "Whether Christ is called God must be determined from Jn. i.1; xx.28; 1Jn. v. 20 ; Ro. ix. 5; Tit. ii.13; Heb. i.8 sq., etc,; the matter is still in dispute among theologians."

Max

Magus55

Jesus specifically said, He and God the Father are one. That means equality - I don't care how you try to explain it. Jesus and God are one and the same. Jesus was called, God with us. Now why would the prophet call Him Immanual if He wasn't God.

Messianic Jews, except the Truine God. And The Triune God is pointed out in Genesis - so there is no excuse.

Now, JW's may have a different view of God based on your book - but the Bible makes it abundantly clear - Jesus is God.

The matter is not still in dispute among mainstream Christian theologians. That Jesus was worshipped as God and claimed to be so is made quite clear. If Jesus was not God, why did He say before Abraham was I am? God told Moses in the cave to call Him I Am that I Am. So Jesus is I Am, and God is I Am , therefore Jesus = God.

Peter Kirby

If the Triune God is pointed out in Genesis, then why did nobody (think "Jews") pick up on the idea of a Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost until around a thousand years after its writing (think "church fathers")?

best,
Peter Kirby

mark9950

I think that you should really learn more about your God and allah too.

Maybe you should take a vacation to israel and see that there are many many muslims in the middle east.

In the world there are about one billion muslims.

Also when you are there you must take a course in the language of hebrew and learn what the jews think about this jesus character and the OT.

You may be enlightened.

Also the hebrew God is elohim which is a uniplural just like my family last name.One name for many members.

Jesus and the so called father are two gods of the supposed family of gods(zeus,apollo,etc.)

YHWHtruth

<<<<Jesus specifically said, He and God the Father are one. That means equality - I don't care how you try to explain it. Jesus and God are one and the same. Jesus was called, God with us. Now why would the prophet call Him Immanual if He wasn't God. >>>>>>

When saying, “I and the Father are one,” did Jesus mean that they were equal? But at John 17:21,_22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.” He used the same Greek word (hen) for “one” in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do come to share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.

Simply naming someone Imanuel does not make him God anymore than naming someone Jehu (meaning "Jehovah is He") makes someone Jehovah.

<<<Now, JW's may have a different view of God based on your book - but the Bible makes it abundantly clear - Jesus is God>>>

We need only refer to Scripture to show that such a doctrine is entirely foreign to the Bible. In 1 Cor. 8:6 we are specifically told that the one God is one person, the Father. Also, Jesus is not the same God as the Father, for the Father is his God.

The trinitarian position is helpless in the face of biblical scrutiny, and those who promote it are forced to read later theology back into the text, for the Bible nowhere articulates their understanding of God.

<<<<The matter is not still in dispute among mainstream Christian theologians. That Jesus was worshipped as God and claimed to be so is made quite clear. If Jesus was not God, why did He say before Abraham was I am? God told Moses in the cave to call Him I Am that I Am. So Jesus is I Am, and God is I Am , therefore Jesus = God.>>>

I fail to see how a Trinitarian can see that Jesus is the “I AM” since the context of Exodus shows that this is an angel speaking for Jehovah.

“And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. {3:15} And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” Ex 3:14, 15 ASV Trinitarian theology teaches that Jesus is NOT the Father, yet Jehovah is identified as the Father. Isa.64.8 says," Jehovah (YHWH) you are our Father. The Father is YHWH (cf. Ps 103:13; Pr 3:12;Is 63:16)


Max

To an Unknown God

Quoting Peter:
"If the Triune God is pointed out in Genesis, then why did nobody (think "Jews") pick up on the idea of a Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost until around a thousand years after its writing (think "church fathers")?"

I think its possible nobody picked up on it because no one had directly experienced God in all 3 forms until Jesus ascended into heaven and the Holy Spirit fell on the early church in the upper room.

Jesus said before he was taken up that he was sending them a "helper"- I don't think the whole picture would have "clicked" until they actually experienced the HS in the upper room.

Especially with things regarding the character and person of God,
it's not uncommon for thing to not "click" even when the writing is right in front of someone. It still happens today.

We only grasp these things as God reveals them to us.

Not sure if that makes sense...

Mark and Max,
I don't know what to say other than as Magus said you're debating that is not really disputed.

this comment from max:
"We need only refer to Scripture to show that such a doctrine is entirely foreign to the Bible. In 1 Cor. 8:6 we are specifically told that the one God is one person, the Father. Also, Jesus is not the same God as the Father, for the Father is his God."

The Father was Jesus' God- simply because Jesus was an example. He was an example of worship and obedience to his Father. Since God is God, it's well within His capabilities to send "himself" to earth as an example.
Jesus was human and God at the same time. Trying to compare Him to the Father will always results in something that doesn't make sense because they are different and the same at the same time which doesn't make sense to anyone living in a finite realm.