Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 02-27-2003, 07:26 PM

He didn't screw up - We did. If your parents raise you in a good environment, good home with tons of love and attention - and you grow up and murder someone - was it their fault or yours?

God created the world without evil. But since he also gave humans free will and ability to decide whether or not they wanted to remain good - there was the opportunity for evil to enter the world. God doesn't want robots who can't make their own decisions love him - he wants people who are sincere - he doesn't force you to love him.

We chose to rebell and disobey God, we chose to not heed his warning, We chose to commit evil and value our own pleasures above God. Don't go blaming him for anything - blame society and humans for abusing his gifts.

You should be on your knees pleading and thanking God eternally for what he did for you - you reject him, deny he even exists, live in your own sin - make him at fault for it, insult him - and yet he still dies for you. Talk about ungrateful. That right there shows his mercy and love because I could never put my child through that to save people so destructive and disobedient. We do not deserve what He did for us because it was all our fault. We even have people so sick as to go and say - i didn't ask Jesus to die for me - wth? And you wonder why God punishes people - good, moral, sinless atheists my arse.

Magus55 · 02-27-2003, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JenniferD
Thank you for pointing that out. My post was indeed written in response to the earlier version of that post.

Here is where I am having the problem. You keep giving me the What's and the Who's, but I want the Why's. You keep explaining your position, I am asking you to defend it. I want you to give me a valid reason to believe what you're saying. I'm not asking for more illogical stuff to believe. I want a valid argument for your position.

Valid arguments are not:

God says so.
God's ways are mysterious.
God does not have to justify his actions to us.
You just don't understand.
You just have to have faith.
Humans can't understand god's ways.
Just because that's the way it is.
I don't know how else to explain it.

Those are church arguments. You want to put forth those arguments, go to church. You want to play here, you need to play by the rules here. If you need help with valid argument forms, read the FAQ.

Until you give me a valid, logical reason why a sin against an eternal being requires eternal punishment, I reject your claim and The problem of punishment out of proportion to the crime remains unsolved.

Jen

Then i guess it will remain unsolved - don't know what else to tell you - i tried to explain the why and did it to the best of my knowledge.

We can't know exactly why God is like that, he just is - i don't know how to possibly illustrate his character and reasons any better. Sorry.

02-27-2003, 07:31 PM

Quote:

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."Genesis 6:5-7

You see, even God admits he fucked up. Hardly the action of a perfect being.

Quote:

he saw the path the children were heading and stopped them before they reached the point of no return.

And yet he couldn't see the path of mankind before he created them?

Jove · 02-27-2003, 07:50 PM

You same Cthulhu from LUE?

02-27-2003, 08:09 PM

Quote:

He didn't screw up - We did. If your parents raise you in a good environment, good home with tons of love and attention - and you grow up and murder someone - was it their fault or yours?

If your parents are omnipotent, omniscient deities who created not only you, but the universe and all the factors that they know in advance will affect you in a certain manner, then yes, it is their fault.

Your analogy is specious. Try again.

Quote:

God created the world without evil.

Are you implying that there are things that come into creation that God himself didn't create? How is that possible if he is the creator of all things? Are there other things which can come into existence independent of God?

Quote:

But since he also gave humans free will and ability to decide whether or not they wanted to remain good - there was the opportunity for evil to enter the world.

Free will and omniscience cannot coexist. How many times does this need to be repeated before it sinks into your skull?

Quote:

God doesn't want robots who can't make their own decisions love him - he wants people who are sincere - he doesn't force you to love him.

Why does he care whether we love him? Why is your God is damn insecure? And what does he want us for, exactly?

Quote:

We chose to rebell (sic) and disobey God, we chose to not heed his warning, We chose to commit evil and value our own pleasures above God. Don't go blaming him for anything - blame society and humans for abusing his gifts.

And God created us with all these predelections and flaws, knowing in advance what they would lead to, so yes, I will blame him (even though I don't because he doesn't exist).

Quote:

You should be on your knees pleading and thanking God eternally for what he did for you

I should thank him for threatening me with eternal torture for being what he made me?

Quote:

you reject him, deny he even exists, live in your own sin - make him at fault for it, insult him - and yet he still dies for you. Talk about ungrateful.

He died for me to save me from the damnation he himself created.

What a guy.

Quote:

That right there shows his mercy and love because I could never put my child through that to save people so destructive and disobedient. We do not deserve what He did for us because it was all our fault. We even have people so sick as to go and say - i didn't ask Jesus to die for me - wth? And you wonder why God punishes people

No, I don't wonder why God punishes people, because he doesn't exist except in your mind. What I do wonder about is your immunity to logic and your seemingly endless supply of horseshit rationalizations in defense of the idea of eternal punishment.

02-27-2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jove
You same Cthulhu from LUE?

Well, I don't know what LUE is, but I don't frequent any other forum with this name, if that's what you mean.

lpetrich · 02-27-2003, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No, it was a different time period and people were even more heinous than today - God had to be harsh with them.

Let me explain the flood for you - not that it will make you understand it much better.

The days of Noah were nothing short of apocolyptic. The world was worse than it was today - and i mean much worse - the world as we know it is like woodstock and the hippy days compared to the world during Noah's time. More crimes, hate, killing, violence than we can imagine. ... (rest of fairy tale deleted)

There is absolutely zero independent evidence for this hypothetical period of great wickedness. Zero.

Also, an omnipotent being who wanted everybody to behave in some way would program them to behave them that way.

I expect to get a lot of wailing about free will, but Jesus Christ taught that one ought to remove body parts that cause one to sin. Thus, if free will causes one to sin, then one must deprive oneself of free will.

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
... Life on Earth is precious, but it pales in comparison to Heaven. ...

If Heaven is so great, then why not send oneself there and leave this evil world behind?

Queen of Swords · 02-27-2003, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Old Man
It could be said that the gospel was never preached.

My question was, what happens to the person who refuses to believe on that basis?

Indeed, the mercy of God does continue on for those who respond to God's mercy,

By "respond", do you mean "obey him and worship him"? So the "mercy that endures for ever" is basically only for his followers?

Deu 7:10 [God] repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

So much for "love your enemies". Jesus should have preached that particular teaching to his father before he taught it to anyone else.

The bible distinguishes sinning in ignorance, from sinning defiantly:

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

If there is indeed such a differentiation, what happens to people who die in ignorance of the gospel?

1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without?

How does this show that the bible doesn't deal with hypotheticals?

It's no business of any Christian to pronounce public judgments [vis a vis hell/heaven] on anyone who appears to be outside the church.

No one was asking you to pronounce a public judgement on anyone. I was, however, asking if it was possible that questions we asked here might (if given sincere and reasonable answers) lead us back to god.

That include's any and all hypothetical situations which serve only to trivialize the bible.

So do you think we should only discuss hypothetical situations which serve to glorify the bible? Why, in your opinion, is the bible "trivialized" by a simple question? Perhaps it's not a very good book, if my question could trivialize it.

Queen of Swords · 02-27-2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
i don't like being mocked.

Previously posted by Magus55, taken from various threads

Quote:

Congratulations on making the most pointless statement here

Atheists throw away anything that is beyond their comprehension.

i wouldn't want to be in their Heaven anyway ( Islam's whore house for example - no thanks)

God wasn't the one who tortured, abused, and executed Jesus - your dear sweet "not inherently evil" human brethren did.

No matter what i say you bring up some contradictory excuse because Atheists have nothing else

You probably just got worse because God didn't give you everything you wanted

Magus 55 dishes it out, but doesn't want to eat it. Very Christian example you're setting there, Magus.

Queen of Swords · 02-27-2003, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
The children were killed because of what they would have become.

Why he couldn't just take the children away to heaven without killing them, we'll never know.

All those children are now in eternal paradise playing, having fun, laughing - basking in God's love.

Child #1 : Oh wow, heaven is worth seeing the water rising, and watching my parents drowning!
Child #2 : Like, no kidding, I love playing here. It makes those moments of agony as the water rushed into my lungs all worth while!
Child # 3 : Yes, God's love more than compensates for the mudslide that buried my house and crushed my grandparents to death. I spent a whole hour suffocating, but now I can laugh!
Child #1 : Yeah, I even laugh when I think about my parents burning in hell.
Child #2 : And my older brother - he taught me how to fish - but he was a year past the age of accountability, so he's in Hell. Oh well, I'm having fun, and that's all that matters.
All three children : Thanks for killing us, God! You're the best murderer ever!

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02-27-2003, 07:26 PM	#81
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	He didn't screw up - We did. If your parents raise you in a good environment, good home with tons of love and attention - and you grow up and murder someone - was it their fault or yours? God created the world without evil. But since he also gave humans free will and ability to decide whether or not they wanted to remain good - there was the opportunity for evil to enter the world. God doesn't want robots who can't make their own decisions love him - he wants people who are sincere - he doesn't force you to love him. We chose to rebell and disobey God, we chose to not heed his warning, We chose to commit evil and value our own pleasures above God. Don't go blaming him for anything - blame society and humans for abusing his gifts. You should be on your knees pleading and thanking God eternally for what he did for you - you reject him, deny he even exists, live in your own sin - make him at fault for it, insult him - and yet he still dies for you. Talk about ungrateful. That right there shows his mercy and love because I could never put my child through that to save people so destructive and disobedient. We do not deserve what He did for us because it was all our fault. We even have people so sick as to go and say - i didn't ask Jesus to die for me - wth? And you wonder why God punishes people - good, moral, sinless atheists my arse.

02-27-2003, 07:50 PM	#84
Jove Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 63	You same Cthulhu from LUE?

02-27-2003, 10:23 PM	#88
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Old Man It could be said that the gospel was never preached. My question was, what happens to the person who refuses to believe on that basis? Indeed, the mercy of God does continue on for those who respond to God's mercy, By "respond", do you mean "obey him and worship him"? So the "mercy that endures for ever" is basically only for his followers? Deu 7:10 [God] repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. So much for "love your enemies". Jesus should have preached that particular teaching to his father before he taught it to anyone else. The bible distinguishes sinning in ignorance, from sinning defiantly: Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. If there is indeed such a differentiation, what happens to people who die in ignorance of the gospel? *1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without?* How does this show that the bible doesn't deal with hypotheticals? It's no business of any Christian to pronounce public judgments [vis a vis hell/heaven] on anyone who appears to be outside the church. No one was asking you to pronounce a public judgement on anyone. I was, however, asking if it was possible that questions we asked here might (if given sincere and reasonable answers) lead us back to god. That include's any and all hypothetical situations which serve only to trivialize the bible. So do you think we should only discuss hypothetical situations which serve to glorify the bible? Why, in your opinion, is the bible "trivialized" by a simple question? Perhaps it's not a very good book, if my question could trivialize it.

02-27-2003, 10:46 PM	#90
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 The children were killed because of what they would have become. Why he couldn't just take the children away to heaven without killing them, we'll never know. All those children are now in eternal paradise playing, having fun, laughing - basking in God's love. Child #1 : Oh wow, heaven is worth seeing the water rising, and watching my parents drowning! Child #2 : Like, no kidding, I love playing here. It makes those moments of agony as the water rushed into my lungs all worth while! Child # 3 : Yes, God's love more than compensates for the mudslide that buried my house and crushed my grandparents to death. I spent a whole hour suffocating, but now I can laugh! Child #1 : Yeah, I even laugh when I think about my parents burning in hell. Child #2 : And my older brother - he taught me how to fish - but he was a year past the age of accountability, so he's in Hell. Oh well, I'm having fun, and that's all that matters. All three children : Thanks for killing us, God! You're the best murderer ever!

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