FunkyRes

I'll give the standard Isaiah 53 parallel.
You can read it and even with a very limited knowledge of Christianity, see the parallel.

Radcliffe Emerson

Exactly. The ideas about Jesus specifically, not the messiah in general, are not of Jewish origin.
The Jews did not and still don't believe their messiah will be anything other than a normal man, albeit an extremely wise one. He will not arrive as a human sacrifice to appease God, and his FIRST arrival will unite the entire world, ending wars, strife, etc. That clearly has not happened.
Also, the Jews do not believe in eternal torment. Gehenna for them is the garbage dump outside Jerusalem, and any torment or judgement is temporary, not forever.
The other thing the rabbi said was, the English/Christian versions of the Old Testament, especially the areas that claim to predict Christ, are not interpreted or translated correctly.
For example, in Isaiah somewhere there is a verse that Christian bibles translate as "the virgin shall bear a child" or something like that. The Hebrew according to this rabbi means "young woman", not "virgin."
Now I already know there are opinions that the word can be translated both ways, however, the Jews themselves keep the Hebrew Torah and to them it means young woman. I value the opinion of the people the passage originates from higher than the opinion of non-Jews trying to make the passage a prophecy.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]</p>

CX

You're thinking of Isaiah 7:14. I don't know too many Xians who still use that as a proof text. Certainly Jews don't even consider that part of Isaiah to be messianic. And from a logical standpoint it makes absolutely no sense that Is 7:14 refers to Jesus.

CX

Perhaps what is needed is not a limited knowledge of Xianity, but rather of Judaism. In Judaism the "suffering servant" is not and never was a messianic figure at all. The Jewish interpretation is that Is 53 refers to the nation of Israel. Certainly good arguments can be made to support that interpretation. Not only that, but what if early gospel authors are, as J.D.Crossan concludes, retrojecting an historical Jesus into Jewish lore and have simply gotten confused with regard to the suffering servant figure?

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: CX ]</p>

FunkyRes

In modern times, but that doesn't really fit the text well- nor does it explain why in some PRE JESUS Isaiah scrolls the messianic prophecies were marked in the margin with what very likely was a sideways greek letter Chi, the first letter of Kristos (the greek translation of Messiah)

Jayhawker Soule

Issues of reverse engineering aside, it fits the text quite well. See, for example, <a href="http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j4j-2000/html/library/isaiah.html" target="_blank">This Discussion</a>.

CX

It is a myth that this is a modern interpretation. Next you're going to tell me that it was Rashi who initiated this falsehood. Furthermore could you please cite these scrolls?

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: CX ]</p>

Kosh

Cliff Notes really got around!

FunkyRes

<a href="http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/research/qumranmessiahs.html" target="_blank">http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/research/qumranmessiahs.html</a>

I don't think that references the Chi thing- but it does shed some light on pre Christ Judaism- at least in the Qumran sect.

CX

The other problem I have with Is 53 as a fulfilled prophecy regarding Jesus is that it is certainly plausible that the originators of the NT picture of his life and ministry had the Is 53 text in mind and wrote Jesus into that story. That is clearly what happens in GMt's infancy narrative though the Is 7:14 prophecy is a terrible fit.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: CX ]</p>