Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Philosoft · 06-10-2002, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:


I don't understand this: if I give you the ability to freely chose your path, that makes ME responsible for the path you choose?

This doesn't align with what you say next.

Quote:

I might know that you were going to do something terrible, and I might create you anyway, but that does not change the fact that YOU did something terrible, and you could just as easily have not done it, and are therefore responsible for it.

[emphases mine]

You are either using 'know' (as in the probability of an event) in a totally alien way or you are simply ignorant of the contradiction. I presume by "know," you mean "know that event 'e' has a probability of 1 of happening." If you know a person 'p' you created is going to do some action 'a', how is it possible for p to do anything other than a? If you are using some esoteric probabilistic definition of 'know,' now would be a good time to reveal that.

[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]

luvluv · 06-10-2002, 07:48 PM

The key question is only whether or not God's knowledge of a specific action CAUSED the specific action to occur. Of course if God didn't create us, we couldn't do anything. In that respect, God is the First Cause.

Of course, in creating you, God is creating the CONDUIT (you) by which your choices will come into the universe, but he does not CREATE YOUR CHOICES. You do that.

Of a specific fork in a road, God does know what road you will take, because he knows what you will choose. That doesn't mean that your choice to go left or right DID NOT OCCUR.

I am using know in a strage sense, since as I have previously stated, Christians do not believe that God sees some events as past, experiences some events as now, and looks towards some events as future. He lives in an eternal NOW. He is "now" at the end and the begining of history and at all points in between. He is not experiening them as memory nor anticipating them. He is there right "now" as we speak. As I suggested before part of God's omniscience is based on his TEMPORAL omnipresence. He doesn't really "know" you are going to do something. He is watching you do it. He can see every moment in your life just like you can observe your computer screen right now. And not "in his mind" as a premonition. He IS there, in your future. Even when you say "when God created the universe" you are making a misnomer. You make it sound as if at some point God sat and pondered a future event. God was always creating the universe and, technically, He is even now at the begining of time creating the universe. He is also at the end of time watching the universe end. He is the Alpha and the Omega.

[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]

[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]

DRFseven · 06-10-2002, 08:03 PM

luvluv, you need to face the question about free will first or all this stuff about God giving it is useless because we don't have it, anyway. I'll ask you the same question I asked Gemma Therese; maybe you'll see fit to answer. Can we believe what we don't believe?

ax · 06-10-2002, 08:07 PM

Quote:

He is Alpha and Omega...

..meaning he created everything according to what happens in the past pres and future?.He planed it all, the sin, the cross, the hell and heaven bound, the death, the evil, He creates all, he made all, knows all. I emphesize ALL!! Meaning he is... oh I don't know-liable. Think about it and you will end up arguing against your own point.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> [ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: ax ]

luvluv · 06-10-2002, 08:07 PM

You can change your beliefs.

ax · 06-10-2002, 08:11 PM

What?? you mean read the bible so as to make it fit your beliefs??? I don't follow.

Philosoft · 06-10-2002, 08:14 PM

Luvluv,

I'll try to keep this simple. Instead of my watching you rewrite your same contradictory argument with different words, I'll ask one question. Answer in as much detail as you like.

In what sense is a choice 'free' if the outcome has been determined? If it is not possible for me to choose 'not action 'a'' because God knows that's the action I will choose, by what definition is that a 'free choice'?

[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]

tronvillain · 06-10-2002, 08:15 PM

Free will doesn't lurk anywhere - it's right up front where everyone can see it. People choose between alternatives all of the time.

ax · 06-10-2002, 08:20 PM

A friend once told me that for free will to truely
exist, we must be in a state of ablivion-where there are no factors to determine our choices.

luvluv · 06-10-2002, 08:26 PM

The reason why we are talking around each other is a difference in the perception of time that we experience and the perception of time that Christians believe that God experiences. What is a contradiction in linear time could make total sense in circular time.

The outcome of a particular choice has not "been determined" it is "being observed" God knows the future because He IS CURRENTLY SEEING the future. What you see as knowledge of a future event, God sees as observation of a present event. Now to you, who will not intersect the future until "a later date" it seems pre-determined. But it is NOT. It is ALREADY HAPPENING for a person who lives in circular time.

Even the use of the word "been" constitutes a total misunderstanding of what we are dealing with here. Nothing "has been" to God, ALL TIMES are happening "NOW".

I have to go to bed now people, I will be back tommorow.

[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]

06-10-2002, 07:48 PM	#12
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	The key question is only whether or not God's knowledge of a specific action CAUSED the specific action to occur. Of course if God didn't create us, we couldn't do anything. In that respect, God is the First Cause. Of course, in creating you, God is creating the CONDUIT (you) by which your choices will come into the universe, but he does not CREATE YOUR CHOICES. You do that. Of a specific fork in a road, God does know what road you will take, because he knows what you will choose. That doesn't mean that your choice to go left or right DID NOT OCCUR. I am using know in a strage sense, since as I have previously stated, Christians do not believe that God sees some events as past, experiences some events as now, and looks towards some events as future. He lives in an eternal NOW. He is "now" at the end and the begining of history and at all points in between. He is not experiening them as memory nor anticipating them. He is there right "now" as we speak. As I suggested before part of God's omniscience is based on his TEMPORAL omnipresence. He doesn't really "know" you are going to do something. He is watching you do it. He can see every moment in your life just like you can observe your computer screen right now. And not "in his mind" as a premonition. He IS there, in your future. Even when you say "when God created the universe" you are making a misnomer. You make it sound as if at some point God sat and pondered a future event. God was always creating the universe and, technically, He is even now at the begining of time creating the universe. He is also at the end of time watching the universe end. He is the Alpha and the Omega. [ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ] [ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

06-10-2002, 08:14 PM	#17
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	Luvluv, I'll try to keep this simple. Instead of my watching you rewrite your same contradictory argument with different words, I'll ask one question. Answer in as much detail as you like. In what sense is a choice 'free' if the outcome has been determined? If it is not possible for me to choose 'not action 'a'' because God knows that's the action I will choose, by what definition is that a 'free choice'? [ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>

06-10-2002, 08:26 PM	#20
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	The reason why we are talking around each other is a difference in the perception of time that we experience and the perception of time that Christians believe that God experiences. What is a contradiction in linear time could make total sense in circular time. The outcome of a particular choice has not "been determined" it is "being observed" God knows the future because He IS CURRENTLY SEEING the future. What you see as knowledge of a future event, God sees as observation of a present event. Now to you, who will not intersect the future until "a later date" it seems pre-determined. But it is NOT. It is ALREADY HAPPENING for a person who lives in circular time. Even the use of the word "been" constitutes a total misunderstanding of what we are dealing with here. Nothing "has been" to God, ALL TIMES are happening "NOW". I have to go to bed now people, I will be back tommorow. [ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

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06-10-2002, 08:03 PM	#13
DRFseven Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,322	luvluv, you need to face the question about free will first or all this stuff about God giving it is useless because we don't have it, anyway. I'll ask you the same question I asked Gemma Therese; maybe you'll see fit to answer. Can we believe what we don't believe?

06-10-2002, 08:07 PM	#15
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	You can change your beliefs.

06-10-2002, 08:11 PM	#16
ax Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In your mind! Posts: 289	What?? you mean read the bible so as to make it fit your beliefs??? I don't follow.

06-10-2002, 08:15 PM	#18
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Free will doesn't lurk anywhere - it's right up front where everyone can see it. People choose between alternatives all of the time.

06-10-2002, 08:20 PM	#19
ax Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In your mind! Posts: 289	A friend once told me that for free will to truely exist, we must be in a state of ablivion-where there are no factors to determine our choices.

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