Azathoth

End of the world prophecies have been around almost as long as the Christian religion.Everyone's convinced it's right away.

The criteria are always different,but the results are the same:"follow us because we're your only ticket to safety."

It doesn't matter whether it's a Millenial prediction,something based on Astrology,or whether it's a claim that it will happen before "the generation that saw the events of (a certain date) pass away."

It's never been right.Never will be,either.

Those people who believe this,will grow old and die believing it's still right around the corner.As they have many,many times in the past.

Of course,the less honest groups will simply change the criteria,or the wording,for the end prediction,and go on preaching it.

Ah,well.Maybe someday,mankind will gain the sense to avoid this kind of religious nonsense.

Felstorm

You do know that the Watchtower Mind Control and Delusion society has been making false prophecies since the turn of the century? Not only that. But it one thing that would be a total affront most JW's is that it was founded by a Protestant Freemason, who no doubt incorporated Freemason ideas into the inner workings of the religion, which was taken over by ANOTHER Freemason, Rutherford. And the whole 144,000 thing has been going on for so long that there are like some one million people that are partaking of the holy eucharist? So some of them are gonna burn in that world-ending firey conflagration. How's that for a coup de gras? They think they are gonna get into "heaven" and in actuality they are probably gonna find their way to the dreaded "abyss/hell" or "lake of fire/Gehenna/hell". But they don't know that. We don't believe in "hell" but we believe in a Lake of FIRE of eternal oblivion! Whats the difference?

Lets see it predicted THAT to happen in 1914. And then, as if they didn't learn the first time, again in 1975. It is now 2003. The world still turns, and atheists are still here. And that "generation" that started in the "endtimes", back in 1914, is now almost completely gone. So where is Jesus? He said he was coming back before they were all gone. I wanna see some fire and brimstone dammit.

Oh yeah can't forget that it's coming like "a thief in the night". Just a little fear motivation there for cliche posterity. God is coming back to be a sanctimonious prick and mass-murder the world again, you see the flood wasn't good enough. Someone got away last time. Nothing beats genocide for proof of existence. What a wonderful god. He loves us all. But somehow that love is like the relationship between a red-headed step-child and an abusive parent.

So to sum all this up, I'm going to make a prophecy. Because I'm feeling particularly inspired at the moment. I predict that this planet and twisted group of carbon based lifeforms called humans will still be here in the year 2025, after all those 1914 "endtimes generation" are all dead and gone. And we will still be here, I'll be 45 with kids and a house payment, commuting to the moon everyday for work. And I predict that there will still be the chicken littles screaming about the sky falling, and all about vengeful jealous gods annihilating humans, and how he needs money. Omnipotent god has trouble managing money. That's why he needs multibillion dollar a year "donation" based religions to make sure we don't forget that he's coming back to be a sanctimonious prick and kill off 99.999996% of the world population.


Again.


I love you god.

thebeave

I've thought about this too. I think they cling to the idea of JC coming back in the same sort of manner that a parent clings to the hope/feeling that their long lost/kidnapped child will someday return and walk through the front door. They cannot accept the "finality" of no-return.

YHWHtruth

WHAT POMPOUS RHETORIC

They think they are gonna get into "heaven" and in actuality they are probably gonna find their way to the dreaded "abyss/hell" or "lake of fire/Gehenna/hell". But they don't know that. We don't believe in "hell" but we believe in a Lake of FIRE of eternal oblivion! Whats the difference?

Where did that come from??

The misinformation wagon keeps rolling

Max

Isaac Newton announced it for about another 90 years in his day

YHWHtruth

The beave I agree people want to see him (in the flesh) so badly, but what does the bible say?

The use of lexicons to answer questions about the meaning of Greek words is legitimate. But we should keep in mind that in a lexicon we do not find the *meaning* of a word, but only glosses representing the way a Greek word has been translated into English. The meaning of a word is not found in manuscripts or books but in the minds of living people, those who have the same presupposition pool (native speakers of Greek). Moreover, lexicons often base their glosses on theology rather than philology (See the fine criticism of TDNT by Barr, J. (1975) "Semantics of Biblical Language", Oxford: Oxford University Press.)The basic question regarding PAROUSIA is whether the word signals a state (which by definition is durative), whether it signals a punctiliar event (the act of coming), or whether it signals the
entrance into the state of being present. We may illustrate the case by taking a look at verbs. The characteristics "durativity" and "punctiliarity" are Aktionsart terms (not aspectual terms), and it is important to keep in mind that a verb marked for durativity, never ceases to be durative. Thus durativity is a semantic (uncancellable) characteristic.The characteristic "punctiliarity", on the other hand, is not semantic, that is, a verb whose default interpretation is punctiliar can in some contexts be interpreted as durative as well. This illustrates that the characteristic durativity is rather easy to pinpoint, but punctiliarity is more elusive.

In the NT PAROUSIA occurs 24 times. The word signalled a concept in the minds of native speakers of Greek, and the author of a text would use the context the help the reader see which side of the concept he wanted to make visible in each case. (The context does not generate lexical meaning, all such meaning is connected with the concept in the human minds, but the context helps make visible a part of this concept.) A native Greek would in most cases instantly ascertain the part of the concept that the author had made visible. We, who have a different resupposition pool (connected with English) can only find the side of the concept signalled by a word that the author has made visible, by a more tedious study of the context.

As to the NT use, the state of being present is made visible in
Philippians 2:12 where PAROUSIA is used in contrast to APOUSIA. But what about "coming", which is a punctiliar action, can we see in any of the instances that this is what is made visible? I would say "no". Firstly, actions that are punctiliar (instantaneous) are, because of their nature (punctiliar words can also have a durative
interpretation), very difficult to pinpoint. For instance, if I say
"Please sit down", do I stress (make visible) the instantaneous
action of lowering oneself from standing to sitting position, or do I stress (make visible) the result of being seated? Secondly, the gloss "coming" as an entry for PAROUSIA in the NT is based on theology and not on philology. In no place in the NT do the context forbid the stative sense of PAROUSIA "to have come and being present". And in no place do the context demand the punctiliar sense "coming". As to the PAROUSIA of Jesus, the context even suggests the stative and durative meaning in Matthew 24:34 where the parallel is "the days of Noah" and
not "the day of Noah". it is claimed that PAROUSIA is used as "a
technical term for the coming of Christ". The word "technical" should cause alarm bells to ring in our mind; this is theology and not philology! When the term "technical" is used, we should always ask "Where is the evidence?", and even be more critical than in other instances.

In the Classical Greek examples that are cited in the lexicons as
evidence of the instantaneous sense "coming" I find exactly the same problem as in connection with the NT use. Turner, N (1981)
"Christian Words" Nashville:Thomas Nelson Publishers discusses
PAROUSIA (pp 404-409). He cites Sophocles' "Elecvtra" 1104 which he translates: "Would you announce our arrival?" But how can we know that it is the action of "coming" and not the state of "being present" that is made visible? Why could we not translate: "Would you announce our presence?" I do not say that PAROUSIA cannot be given a punctiliar interpretation. But I have never seen a clear-cut example of this sense, so I will be happy if someone on the list could give a Classical example where the context *demands* the instantaneous sense "coming".

Max

Azathoth

Pot-Kettle-Black

Ok.It looks like you've focused on one part of Felstorm's post,without addressing the rest.Let's see if we can get you do do that.

Is what he said about the Jehovah's Witnesses believing up,until very recently,that they would see Armegeddon before the generation of 1914 is gone,true?

Misinformation there?

YHWHtruth

This generation" did not change our understanding of what occurred in 1914. But it did give us a clearer grasp of Jesus' use of the term "generation," helping us to see that his usage was no basis for calculating-counting from 1914-how close to the end we are.

Max

Appius

Well, for one the reason God does what he does at the time he chooses is embodied in Romans:
For when we were yet without strength, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly (Rom 5:6)
So the reaons Christ came when he did was because it was the right time. In short, he will come again when the time is right, and since men do not have the insight of God we do not know at what time.
Also, since God is eternal time means nothing to him-that is why a thousands years to us is like a day to him.

The oppression of the innocent people? Are you speaking about the church commanding people what to do such as going to confessions, following the commandments and such?

Felstorm

Okay so basically you realised Rutherford was full of it? And secured an undefined date for the end of the world? Yet at that same time they keep stringing people along with "tidbits". "It's coming real soon. Any minute now.'

They have been doing this for over 100 years.

I mean making false predictions have a way of making millions of followers walk away from religions, just like in 1975. The WTBTS had their own little witchhunts in the '70's looking for, and I quote "apostates" that were perpetuating the "lie" that they made false predicitons which they did in fact make. And then excommunicating those that were found "doubting" God's communications of divine intent to his "Faithful and Discreet Slave". One victim was a man by the name of Raymond Franz. Who then wrote an exposee into the inner workings of the WTBTS society.

http://www.freeminds.org/sales/most_burned.htm

Because the WTBTS definately made predictions with some rather interesting mathematics made from interpretations within the bible. And we all know what god does to false prophets.

"Burninate them!" ~ YHVH/Cthulhu.

YHWHtruth

Okay so basically you realised Rutherford was full of it? And secured an undefined date for the end of the world? Yet at that same time they keep stringing people along with "tidbits". "It's coming real soon. Any minute now.'

They have been doing this for over 100 years.

Reply: I do not follow Rutherford, and neither do any other J.W.'s. Why have trinitarian Christians led some of the bloodiest and cruelest crimes against human history? How far do you want to play this game? What does Rutheford have to do with "generation", stop making things up FEL.

I mean making false predictions have a way of making millions of followers walk away from religions, just like in 1975. The WTBTS had their own little witchhunts in the '70's looking for, and I quote "apostates" that were perpetuating the "lie" that they made false predicitons which they did in fact make. And then excommunicating those that were found "doubting" God's communications of divine intent to his "Faithful and Discreet Slave". One victim was a man by the name of Raymond Franz. Who then wrote an exposee into the inner workings of the WTBTS society.

Reply:Truth: The that link you sent me references the 1972 Watchtower, where the term "prophet" is used in quotation marks, meaning that it is used in a quasi-sense. This expression is used in the same way as it us used of Billy Graham in the book, "A Prophet With Honor: The Billy Graham Story" by William Martin. This is meant to designate Graham as a man with special moral and Biblical insight, but no one would ever address him as "Prophet" in the sense of "Seer," and similarly, Jehovah's Witnesses, not then, nor now, have ever addressed any other brother, Elder, etc., as "prophet," as this would be deemed inappropriate. In fact, Jehovah's Witnesses have gone out of their way to state that they are not Prophets in the sense of Seer:

"It is not our intention to enter upon the role of prophet to any degree, but merely to give below what seems to us rather likely to be the trend of events--giving also the reasons for our expectations." March 1,1904 Watchtower

"Someone may ask, Do you, then, claim infallibility and that every sentence appearing in "The Watch Tower" publications is stated with absolute correctness? Assuredly we make no such claim and have never made such a claim. What motive can our opponents have in so charging against us? Are they not seeking to set up a falsehood to give themselves excuse for making attacks and to endeavor to pervert the judgments of others?" Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's Presence, 15 September 1909.

Early on in this publication the reader is invited to "examine each point carefully ...compare the argument with the Scriptures cited, and view the same in the light of present day events which are discernible to all eyes, and upon this evidence reach a conclusion." Page 13

"Many students have made the grievous mistake of thinking that God has inspired men to interpret prophecy. The holy prophets of the Old Testament were inspired by Jehovah to write as his power moved upon them. The writers of the New Testament were clothed with certain power and authority to write as the Lord directed them. However, since the days of the apostles no man on earth has been inspired to write prophecy, nor has any man been inspired to interpret prophecy." "Prophecy" (Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1929), page 61-62

"IT is not the prerogative of the WatchTower, nor of any forming a part of the 'servant' class, to announce its judgment; but it is their duty to call attention to God's judgments as they are written, and this must be done as a warning." "Vindication", 3 vols (Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1931-1932)

"This pouring out of God's spirit upon the flesh of all his faithful anointed witnesses does not mean that those now serving as Jehovah's Witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes. It does not mean that the president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is inspired and infallible, although enemies falsely charge us with believing so... But we confess with the Scriptures that the day of such inspiration passed long before 1870, as the apostle Paul showed it would .... Inspired speaking and writing passed away with the last of the twelve apostles, by whom the gifts of the spirit were imparted to others. Yet God is still able to teach and lead us. While confessing no inspiration for today for anyone on earth, we do have the privilege of praying to God for more of his holy spirit and for his guidance of us by the bestowal of his spirit through Jesus Christ." Manner of Inspiring the Bible, The Watchtower, 15 May 1947, 157-158 under the sub-heading, "No Such Inspiration Today"

"The Watchtower is founded on the very pinnacle of reliable wisdom, namely, God's Word the Bible...because its words find their foundation in God's Word ... However the Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic. It invites careful and critical examination of its contents in the light of the Scriptures. Its purpose is to aid others to know Jehovah and his purposes toward mankind, and to announce Christ's established kingdom as our only hope." "Name and purpose of the Watchtower", 15 August 1950, 262-26

"Since today we have the complete inspired Scriptures God is not giving any more inspired visions or dreams. However, Jehovah's people today are seeing the fulfillment of many of the inspired visions and dreams that God's servants had in ancient times, and they are even having a share in the fulfillment of the prophecy, "your sons and your daughters will certainly prophesy. (Joel 2:28) Not that these prophesy in the sense of foretelling events under inspiration, but rather in that they are making public proclamation of the inspired dreams and visions long ago recorded." Watchtower Jan 1, 1971.

"In his day, Ezekiel spoke words that were directly inspired by Jehovah. Today, we speak words from Jehovah's inspired Word, the Bible." "Messengers of Godly Peace Pronounced Happy", The Watchtower, 1 May 1997, p 22, par. 14

"Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible."(December 15, 1896, page 306)

"The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)" (February 15, 1981, page 19)

Because the WTBTS definately made predictions with some rather interesting mathematics made from interpretations within the bible. And we all know what god does to false prophets.

Reply: Take out a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word prophet. You will find a meaning similar to this one from Harrap's Mini Pocket English Dictionary "person who foretells what will happen; religious leader". Most people appear to be under the impression that a prophet originates and idea about the future such as a "fortune teller". Do JW's fall into that definition. Let's consider what the original words in Hebrew and Greek meant.

Notice what Vines Expository Dictionary has to say.HEBREW WORD SECTION"The second occurance of nabi (the English equivalent of the Hebrew word with out the accent marks) establishes it's meaning: "And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I will make thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet" (Exodus 7:1 [KJV]) The background of this statement is Exod. 4:10-16, where Moses argued his inability to speak clearly. Hence, he could not go before Pharaoh as God's spokesman. God promised to appoint Aaron (Moses' brother) to be the speaker: "And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God" (Exod. 4:16 [KJV]). Exod. &:1 expresses the same idea in different words. It is clear that the word "prophet" is equal to one who speaks for another, or his mouth." (italics mine).GREEK WORD SECTION"…"one who speaks forth or openly"…"a proclaimer of a divine message" " Strongs Concordance Definitions. 5012 "… to prophesy, i.e. speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse):- prophesy (-ing) make self a prohet". 5030 "… from 5012; a prophet or (gen.) inspired man:- prophecy, that prophesy, prophet." [italics and brackets ( ) original]. Please note what Vines Composite Expository Dictionary says on page 190 under the Hebrew verb "To Prophesy"."To prophesy is much more than the prediction of future events. Indeed, the first concern of the prophet is to speak God's word to the people of his own time, calling them to covenant faithfulness. The prophets message is conditional, dependant upon the response of the people. Thus by their response to this word, the people determine in a large part what the future holds" (italics mine)Originally, the word that we now use to mean "one who foretells the future" meant "one who speaks for another. Generally, the prophets of the Bible that issued "prophecies" for the future, spoke on behalf of the one that did the "prophecying". So the prophets of Jehovah were spokes persons for himself.What we have to decide for ourselves is, do the Watchtower Publications speak on behalf of the God of the Bible or not? In formulating our own answer for that, consider what is the source of their information. As mentioned above, they always look to Gods word for direction and insight. The message that they give can be said to be a divine one, because it is based on the Bible. It is true that their interpritation of that message has not always been correct, but they are not prepared to hide in the sand and run away from what they have mistaken. They continue to keep on the watch.

"Burninate them!" ~ YHVH/Cthulhu.

Fel are you using the The Cotton Patch Version by Clarence Jordan ?

Matt. 2:1 "When Jesus was born in Gainesville, Georgia"_
Matt. 2:13 "Get moving, and take your wife and baby and highball it to Mexico."
Matt. 2:22 "Herod's Boy Archelaus was governor of Alabama"
Matt. 3:12 "his combine was already running"
Matt. 9:9 "Matthew sitting behind his desk at the Internal Revenue office"
Matt. 9:23 "Y'all get out of here. The little girl isn't dead."
Matt.10:28 "be afraid of the one who can make a hellish hash of both body and soul."
Matt. 11:19 "He is a no-good bum who runs around with Communists and peaceniks."
Matt. 16:6 "Now let me warn you to stay away from the yeast of the Protestants and Catholics."
Crucified/Impaled is "Lynched".
Matt. 22:16 "So they sent him a committee with some FBI men."
Matt. 26:10 "Jesus got wind of it and said, "Why are you bitching at the lady?"

"If every man's humour were followed, there would be ne no end of translating."Richard Bancroft -Bishop of London(1604)

Max