Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MarcoPolo · 06-14-2002, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dangin:
Have you seen the footage? She was making that excited, cutsey, clapping her hands gesture with her face all pinched up in a crinkly eyed smile. It was exuberent in pleasure. This was followed by a wide open mouth smile. She was gleeful, and energetically happy.

Yeah? I can't believe that bitch is happy to be home!! DAMN HER!

Quote:

If I was one of her in-laws I'd be pretty pissed, and I would be questioning her committment to my dead family member.

'Your husband is dead! You're not allowed to be happy that you lived and are home!!!'

Quote:

Being prepared for the death of someone is one thing, but then when it happens, (and violently at that, we're not talking about a long battle with cancer here) a little less cheerleading is in order IMO.

So, now since she is happy she is home, she isn't sad that her husband is dead? Only one emotion at a time, huh?

Quote:

But perhaps the placebo of her faith is doing it's job by placing soothing lies in her ears about eternal life and heaven.

Wow. It's amazing how you used all this space to say nothing.

And I thought creationists were the only ones that avoided questions.

What is the required wait time before showing a happy emotion after the death of a loved one?

And how is it that you became the authority on that?

Not everyone is like you. (You ARE a freethinker aren't you?) Some people have better coping skills. We can assume that you lack these skills and when one of your loved ones dies you'll be just like my mother-in-law. After 10 years she still can't get over that her husband is dead. Whereas my father is married again, 2 years after the death of my mother.

It has nothing to do with being a christian or not. It has to do with reality. Accept that that person isn't here anymore and move on. During that time of accepting, other things may happen that might put a smile on your face. If so, be happy about it.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: MarcoPolo ]

dangin · 06-14-2002, 09:28 AM

marco,

Are you actually suggesting that there is nothing strange in her behavior? I'm not claiming to be an authority on grieving, but I think between 6 and 18 months is what experts consider the normal time for depression, sadness, and emotional stability to be controlled after the loss of a spouse. Clearly 72 hours is an extremely miniscule timespan to behave in a jubilent after the violent death of a spouse of 18 years.

I have stated over and over that smiling, waving, hugging, expressing gladness at being home would be nothing to raise an eyebrow over. But the woman looks like she just won a car on the Price is Right.

It's interesting that you think I am so out of line for expressing that she is acting in a strange fashion so soon after the death of a spouse. Would you attack me if I was a member of her church and was worried about denial and her burying her emotions if she was constantly acting this way. It is also interesting that I think most reasonable people would agree that 72 hours is too short a time to complete grieving, but you seem to think that being married for 18 years and having your spouse killed is something someone can forget and get over in the course of an extended weekend.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: dangin ]

Bree · 06-14-2002, 09:48 AM

I'm sure the lady is just happy to have had the opportunity to do God's work and is pleased to know that her husband has gone home to the bosom of Christ.

HelenM · 06-14-2002, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dangin:
Back to the subject at hand. Gracia Burnham arrived at KCI, and was giddy, and smiling, waving. No sadness, no restrained behavior. She had been a widow for all of three days, and looked like she was ready to dance if it weren't for the wheelchair. Smiling is not a problem, I'm sure she is happy to be home, and to see friends, but she looked like she was being wheeled into a high school reunion, not home from seeing her husband killed by a gun 72 hours earlier.

dangin, to be fair, I think this is quite typical. The first stage of grief is 'denial' - not necessarily that you don't believe it, consciously - but more that it hasn't 'hit you' yet.

When the media attention is off her, she'll do her share of grieving, I'm sure.

Christians who lose a loved one don't miss them any less than any other bereaved person would.

love
Helen

MarcoPolo · 06-14-2002, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dangin:
Are you actually suggesting that there is nothing strange in her behavior?

Of course. Good work Sherlock.

Quote:

I'm not claiming to be an authority on grieving, but I think between 6 and 18 months is what experts consider the normal time for depression, sadness, and emotional stability to be controlled after the loss of a spouse.

So, if it takes at least 6 months to regain her 'emotional stability,' could her appearing happy actually be some of this instability coming through?

Quote:

Clearly 72 hours is an extremely miniscule timespan to behave in a jubilent after the violent death of a spouse of 18 years.

Oh. Have you been watching here every minute of every day? Is she like this ALL day? I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong, that you have no clue what she is like at home with noone watching. Now, if you in fact live with her and can actually say that she is like this all day, then I'll apologize and move on. However, I think you're making a judgement about this woman without knowing everything that's going on.

Quote:

I have stated over and over that smiling, waving, hugging, expressing gladness at being home would be nothing to raise an eyebrow over. But the woman looks like she just won a car on the Price is Right.

All day long or for the short time you saw her on TV?

Quote:

It's interesting that you think I am so out of line for expressing that she is acting in a strange fashion so soon after the death of a spouse.

Another area I thought was exclusive to creationsist. The art of the dodge and strawman development. I never said you are '...out of line for expressing...' for anything. You can express your views until you're blue in the face for all I care. I'm just stating that your view is retarded. You have this formula for grieving that you believe applies to everyone. If someone deviates from that formula then they are out of line.

Quote:

Would you attack me if I was a member of her church and was worried about denial and her burying her emotions if she was constantly acting this way.

Uh. Building another strawman? Of course I wouldn't do that. You're here making a judgement call on her after seeing her for what, 5-10 minutes on some show? If you were a member of her church and interacted with her daily and saw this all the time and was concerned, that would be a completely different story.

Quote:

It is also interesting that I think most reasonable people would agree that 72 hours is too short a time to complete grieving, but you seem to think that being married for 18 years and having your spouse killed is something someone can forget and get over in the course of an extended weekend.

Forget and get over? Wow. Up to this point I actually thought you might actually have a clue.

Do you think that grieving is the only emotion during a grieving period? What if her grandchild did something cute and she smiled about it? Would you be upset that she hasn't made it past the standard grieving time? Does that mean her grieving is over?

Too bad you can't buy clues at the local 7-Eleven.

Seeker630 · 06-14-2002, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fluffy:
What the hell were these 2 idiot missionaries doing in a country known for kidnapings when they have three children at home.

And in a similar and related vein-------

we have to rescue of the 4 or 5 missionaries in Afghanistan by U.S. military forces. Two of them were publicy flaunted by our President as Christian "heros". He gives speeches about what a great religion Islam is, and then holds these people forth as having been heros for deliberately going into an Islamic country, and breaking their laws. But what may be even worse is that we had to endanger the lives of who knows how many young U.S. service personnel to get their sorry asses out of the jam they themselves created.

Bree · 06-14-2002, 12:30 PM

Extensive use of sarcasm and is not doing much to carry on the conversation.

Please try to keep it civil, okay? There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and discussing the reasons why you disagree and deliberately making fun of what the other has to say.

MarcoPolo · 06-14-2002, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree:
Extensive use of sarcasm and is not doing much to carry on the conversation.

Please try to keep it civil, okay? There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and discussing the reasons why you disagree and deliberately making fun of what the other has to say.

Understood. Very hypocritical considering what regulars get away with, but I'll try and tone it down.

It appears my point was made anyways.

HelenM · 06-15-2002, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MarcoPolo:
Very hypocritical considering what regulars get away with

I haven't seen evidence here that 'regulars' are treated any differently than occasional posters.

It's quite possible that moderators miss some instances of incivility; maybe that's what you are thinking.

Just e-mail them if you see some that hasn't been commented on or deleted. If they ignore what you say then you'll actually have evidence of partiality. If not, then I assume you're simply speculating that there's partiality.

Or maybe you, not being a 'regular' yourself, were unaware that there is a little more freedom given in RRP to be sarcastic, than here. One thing I've seen happen is that threads which 'degenerate' into another round of ad hominems, and/or otherwise cease to have substantive discussion, are moved to RRP.

love
Helen

dangin · 06-15-2002, 07:23 AM

Marco, I'm going to let this die, because clearly we won't agree.

Even the five minutes I saw of her set off alarm bells in me, sorry I shared what I and others who saw the footage thought.

And I didn't know that asking a question was building a strawman, but if you say it is, it must be.

06-14-2002, 09:28 AM	#52
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	marco, Are you actually suggesting that there is nothing strange in her behavior? I'm not claiming to be an authority on grieving, but I think between 6 and 18 months is what experts consider the normal time for depression, sadness, and emotional stability to be controlled after the loss of a spouse. Clearly 72 hours is an extremely miniscule timespan to behave in a jubilent after the violent death of a spouse of 18 years. I have stated over and over that smiling, waving, hugging, expressing gladness at being home would be nothing to raise an eyebrow over. But the woman looks like she just won a car on the Price is Right. It's interesting that you think I am so out of line for expressing that she is acting in a strange fashion so soon after the death of a spouse. Would you attack me if I was a member of her church and was worried about denial and her burying her emotions if she was constantly acting this way. It is also interesting that I think most reasonable people would agree that 72 hours is too short a time to complete grieving, but you seem to think that being married for 18 years and having your spouse killed is something someone can forget and get over in the course of an extended weekend. [ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: dangin ]</p>

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06-14-2002, 09:48 AM	#53
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	I'm sure the lady is just happy to have had the opportunity to do God's work and is pleased to know that her husband has gone home to the bosom of Christ.

06-14-2002, 12:30 PM	#57
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Extensive use of sarcasm and is not doing much to carry on the conversation. Please try to keep it civil, okay? There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and discussing the reasons why you disagree and deliberately making fun of what the other has to say.

06-15-2002, 07:23 AM	#60
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	Marco, I'm going to let this die, because clearly we won't agree. Even the five minutes I saw of her set off alarm bells in me, sorry I shared what I and others who saw the footage thought. And I didn't know that asking a question was building a strawman, but if you say it is, it must be.

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