To an Unknown God

"I don't think so. Faith is a belief in something which has no proof or evidence. When you sit on a chair, you have confidence that it will support you like so many chairs have done in the past."

Ok fair enough but it does not change the point- you're making a semantical correction. So it is a "belief". One is a "belief" based on proof, one is not. Either way if you really have said "belief", your actions will generally, in one way or another, reflect it regardless.

Again, if you really believe in something- whether by faith despite not having proof, or because you have proof, you will generally act according to that belief.

mike_decock

Yeah, the whole "You have FAITH in a chair" fallacy is a pet peeve of mine .

-Mike...

Secular Pinoy

Nonesense, Jesus is quite explicit in Matt 24:34 - Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place. This generation means the current generation, no need for semantic acrobatics, or references to 2nd Peter, a 2nd century pseudepigraph written later than Matthew, by christians who have already sensed that the coming of the Kingdom of God will not be happening soon, and are attempting to minimize the error of Jesus. Simple as that.

Magus55

Wrong, read in context.

Matt 24 is discussing the end times signs, and what to look out for. When it says This generation, it is referring to the generation that sees these signs. Jesus is not on a timetable, and never told us when He would return. 1000 years is as 1 day to God - the end times events will be in succession, and the generation that sees these end times signs in succession, shall not pass way before its fulfilled. There were no end times signs during the time of the Apostles - Jesus wasn't talking about them.

long winded fool

If the farmer who Jesus claimed "went out to sow his seed" didn't actually exist in history, is Jesus a liar? Was he in error? Even if parables (or fables if you will) are literally false, is it safe to throw them out as errors? Aren't the figurative meanings what Jesus admonished his disciples and the Pharisees to look at? "This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." It is silly to assume error and unreliability solely because a parable is not historically accurate. A poem can be untrue and contradictory in the literal sense and 100% true in a figurative or allegorical sense. Because it's difficult to figure out doesn't necessarily mean it's not meant to be figured out and is therefore false. If it can be interpreted in a non-contradictory way, it becomes an attack on a strawman to interpret it as a contradiction and then assume that it is an error.

Vicar Philip

Hi, Magus. Hope you won't mind if I jump in here. My wife and I have argued some of these same items, and I'd like to discuss a few of your assertions.While it may be true that SOME sort of "messiah" is mentioned, how, exactly, can you be sure it was referencing Jesus Christ? You can take several different interpretations of the prophecies you mention, but why are you convinced those prophecies explicitly referred to Jesus the Christ? Why couldn't the NT writings have been written to conveniently concur with the long-available prophecies in the OT?Why exactly is it "foolish" to doubt the existence of Jesus? And could you provide this dramatic proof of Jesus' existence (over that of Columbus) without trotting out the tired old Josephus, et. al., supposed "histories?" I take it you meant you don't know of any other mythical characters making as big an impact on humanity as Jesus. What about the billions of people who have been impacted by Allah, for example? Why are they wrong, but you, the Christian, are right? What credence does belief in numbers give an argument? What if all of those people are WRONG? "Flat-earthers" come to mind. I would guess 99% of humanity believed in a flat earth at one time, did that make them right?This is one item I just can't get my brain around. Magus, if YOU were god, would you impose all these mysteries on your "chosen" people, and then expect them to believe? For the actions and love of god to be so obvious to Christians, why does god make it so difficult for anyone else to observe? Wouldn't he want to make it EASIER to believe to increase the numbers of his loving followers?

Dargo

The chair analogy is an interesting one. As a general rule you can trust chairs to support your weight. If one leg of the chair is loose, then you would be correct not to trust it. If a chair has collapsed on you in the past, you would be foolish to sit down on it again. If it has collapsed on you repeatedly, you would have to be a complete idiot to keep sitting down on it hoping that somehow it will work this time. Many of us ex-Christians started losing our faith, precisely because the invisible chair known as Jesus repeatedly failed to support us when we needed it.

Magus55

Because the prophecies in the OT speak of the Lord coming to Earth. The Bible says the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus was called Immanuel, which means God with us or God among us. Jesus claimed to be God, people called Him God and worshipped Him. Jesus performed miracles, and came back from the dead. No records of any other Messiah's coming back from the dead.

Now could the Apostles have just read the OT and wrote the NT to make it look fullfilled? Well, why would the Apostles follow their lie so passionately? Why would the die quite greusome deaths to support a lie that THEY made up?

If Jesus wasn't who He said He was, why did Christianity succeed? Why didn't the Apostles just forget Christianity? They wouldn't have been executed first of all. If Jesus wasn't who He said He was, when He died on the cross - the Apostles should have said - wth - He's really dead - how is a dead Messiah gonna offer us life, if He can't even bring back his own life? The Apostles would have just passed Jesus off as a fraud, like messiahs that promised things before Jesus and fell through on their promise. Something made Christianity succeed, something made the Sabbath be moved to Sunday, and something made so many people follow Jesus to their deaths, bodly proclaiming His word. That something is the ressurection.


Billions of people haven't been impacted by Allah. Billions have been impacted by Mohammed, claiming to be sent from Allah but never showing any reason to believe Him. Mohammed never said He was Allah, never performed miracles, nobody died for Mohammed, and He never died and came back from the dead to prove it. He offered followers enticing things like sex with virgins and young boys, milk and honey etc., things that the people following Him wanted. He was a scam artist to get followers - just like Hitler.

Jesus on the other hand, said the road would be tough - and didn't offer anything that caters to the sinful side of humans - the side that presents it self easier. Jesus didn't offer an eternity of sex or virgins. He didn't offer hoards of money. Jesus said we would be persecuted and hated for following him - and we would have to turn away from our sins. Which means giving up all the things we love so much in this world. Now, if Jesus was some fake messiah, who on Earth would follow Him in order to be persecuted, hated, and give up things they love so much?


Its difficult for everyone else to observe, because they are in love with the world. They like sin, and don't want to give it up - they take the easy road and choose to hide themself from the truth. They are in spiritual denial. Do you think we were all born Christian? We all found God in the Bible and our lives - so obviously He made it possible to happen. That some people choose not to believe, because they can't imagine a world that is outside the explanation of science and human intellect , shows that they don't want to believe - and they aren't open to the possibility. That is your choice. If God made it 100% obvious that He existed, who wouldn't follow Him? Where is the value in that? Everyone would follow God because they know for a fact, if they don't - they will be punished. That isn't love by choice, thats love out of fear and for gain. Faith, or believing without any absolute proof, is what makes belief so valuable. You trust God with your entire life, despite not being positive He is real. It shows a willingness on our part, to devote our lives to Him.

YHWHtruth

<<<<<Jesus was called Immanuel, which means God with us or God among us. Jesus claimed to be God, people called Him God and worshipped Him. Jesus performed miracles, and came back from the dead>>>>>>

Jesus claimed to be God? Please show me where!

Max

To an Unknown God

Dargo,

"Many of us ex-Christians started losing our faith, precisely because the invisible chair known as Jesus repeatedly failed to support us when we needed it."


As Magus explained Jesus never promised an easy road.
It's funny- some people reject Christianity becuase it is a "crutch for the weak" and others say it failed to support them. Neither have a correct perception of what it means to follow Jesus.

Is there something amazing about having a relationship with your creator- having the relationship you were created to have that enriches your life? Absolutely. Does that mean you then have a Jesus Genie who you pray to and then *poof* everything is ok? No.

We live in a fallen world. Sin never effects just the sinner. Unfortunately, having relationship with God does not make us immune to the bad stuff that goes on in this world.

Max,
"Jesus claimed to be God? Please show me where!"

Many times. I'm sure someone with references on hand will provide them. I know he says "I tell if if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Also the Pharisee's main weapon against Jesus was to claim that he was a heretic, claiming to be God.

Also he forgave people's sins which outraged the religious folk at the time. "Who is this man who claims to be able to forgive sins when only God can forgive sins?"

Pretty obvious.