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Old 02-07-2003, 06:45 AM   #21
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Lightbulb Some more information...

Quote:
Originally posted by Shai Hulud
I can't say that it really worried me. For most Wester Europeans religion is (if the care at all) a private thing.
I was just about to post that link.

Perhaps my social circle is limited, but i don't know anyone who professes a religion publicly or ever brings up the subject in conversation.

Here is another link discussing the proposed constitution. Here is some more information on the considerations behind the proposed constitution.

Here, at last, is the draft version all this talk has been about...
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Old 02-07-2003, 06:59 AM   #22
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Lightbulb Moving over to politics...

FYI, i've started a new thread here to discuss the proposed constitution.
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Old 02-07-2003, 06:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: Moving over to politics...

Thanks for mentioning this DMB. I've just sent off an email to one of my MEPs to find out their official stance towards the mention or non-mention of God in the EU Constituion.


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Old 02-10-2003, 07:25 PM   #24
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Hello, everyone !

Speaking of messages to MEPs (not sure what you mean by the acronym, but I have some idea ), a good argument would be that such-and-such EU member state has clear legislation for the separation of church and state, and if we (Romania) are to become members as well (i.e."go to Rome"), we have to support the same (i.e. "do like the romans"). Any of you have any idea where I could find reliable information as to which of the EU members have such legislation ?

Thanx in advance !

"Do What Thou Wilt" Shall Be the Whole of The Law
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Old 02-11-2003, 04:04 AM   #25
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After browsing through the constitutions of the current EU-members at ICL, I found these constitutional articles which have relation to matters of separation of church and state. (It is a rather large post unfortunately)

Austria - Constitution (1983)

Belgium - Constitution (1994)
Quote:
Article 20 [No Forced Religion]
No one can be obliged to contribute in any way whatsoever to the acts and ceremonies of a religion, nor to observe the days of rest.

Article 21 [Church Competencies, Civil Wedding]
(1) The State does not have the right to intervene either in the nomination or in the installation of ministers of any religion whatsoever, nor to forbid these ministers from corresponding with their superiors, from publishing their acts, except, in the latter case, taking into consideration normal responsibilities in matters of press and publication.
(2) A civil wedding should always precede nuptial benediction except in cases established by law, should this be necessary.
Denmark - Constitution (1992)
Quote:
Section 4 [State Church]
The Evangelical Lutheran Church shall be the Established Church of Denmark, and, as such, it shall be supported by the State.

Section 6 [Member of the State Church]
The King shall be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.

Section 66 [Church Constitution]
The constitution of the Established Church shall be laid down by Statute.

Section 67 [Right to Worship]
The citizens shall be entitled to form congregations for the worship of God in a manner consistent with their convictions, provided that nothing at variance with good morals or public order shall be taught or done.

Section 68 [Church Contributions]
No one shall be liable to make personal contributions to any denomination other than the one to which he adheres.

Section 69 [Regulation of Other Religious Bodies]
Rules for religious bodies dissenting from the Established Church shall be laid down by Statute.

Section 70 [Freedom of Religion]
No person shall for reasons of his creed or descent be deprived of access to complete enjoyment of his civic and political rights, nor shall he for such reasons evade compliance with any common civic duty.
Finland - Constitution (2000)
Quote:
Section 11 Freedom of religion and conscience
(1) Everyone has the freedom of religion and conscience.
(2) Freedom of religion and conscience entails the right to profess and practice a religion, the right to express one's convictions and the right to be a member of or decline to be a member of a religious community. No one is under the obligation, against his or her conscience, to participate in the practice of a religion.

Section 76 The Church Act
(1) Provisions on the organisation and administration of the Evangelic Lutheran Church are laid down in the Church Act.
(2) The legislative procedure for enactment of the Church Act and the right to submit legislative proposals relating to the Church Act are governed by the specific provisions in that Code.
France - Constitution (1992)
Quote:
Article 2 [State Form and Symbols]
(1) France is an indivisible, secular, democratic, and social Republic. It ensures the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction as to origin, race, or religion. It respects all beliefs.
(2) The language of the Republic is French.
(3) The national emblem is the blue, white, and red tricolor flag.
(4) The national anthem is the "Marseillaise".
(5) The Motto of the Republic is "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity".
(6) Its principle is government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
Germany - Constitution (2002) PDF-file!
Quote:
Preamble
Conscious of their responsibility before God and men, moved by the purpose to serve world peace as an equal part in a unified Europe, the German People have adopted, by virtue of their constituent power, this Constitution. The Germans in the States [Länder] of Baden-Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Berlin, Brandenburg, Bremen, Hamburg, Hesse, Lower Saxony, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, North Rhine-Westphalia, Rhineland-Palatinate, Saarland, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Schleswig-Holstein and Thuringia have achieved the unity and freedom of Germany in free self-determination. This Constitution is thus valid for the entire German People.

Article 4 [Faith, Religion, Conscience, Creed]
(1) Freedom of creed, of conscience, and freedom to profess a religious or non-religious faith are inviolable.
(2) The undisturbed practice of religion is guaranteed.
(3) No one may be compelled against his conscience to render war service involving the use of arms. Details are regulated by a federal statute.

Article 140 [Law of Religious Bodies]
The provisions of Articles 136, 137, 138, 139 and 141 of the German Constitution of 11 August 1919 are integral parts of this Constitution.

Article 136 WRV [Civil and Political Rights]
(1) Civil and political rights and duties are neither dependent on nor restricted by the exercise of the freedom of religion.
(2) Enjoyment of civil and political rights and eligibility for public office are independent of religious denomination.
(3) No one is bound to disclose his religious convictions. The authorities have no right to inquire into a person's membership of a religious body except to the extent that rights or duties depend thereon or that a statistical survey ordered by law makes it necessary.
(4) No one may be compelled to perform any religious act or ceremony or to participate in religious exercises or to use a religious form of oath.

Article 137 WRV [State Church]
(1) There is no state church.
(2) Freedom of association to form religious bodies is guaranteed. The union of religious bodies within the territory of the Reich is not subject to any restrictions.
(3) Every religious body regulates and administers its affairs autonomously within the limits of the law valid for all. It confers its offices without the Participation of the state or the civil community.
(4) Religious bodies acquire legal capacity according to the general provisions of civil law.
(5) Religious bodies remain corporate bodies under public law insofar as they have been such heretofore. The other religious bodies are granted like rights upon application, where their constitution and the number of their members offers an assurance of their permanency. Where several such religious bodies under public law unite in one organization, such organization is a corporate body under public law.
(6) Religious bodies that are corporate bodies under public law are entitled to levy taxes in accordance with State law on the basis of the civil taxation lists.
(7) Associations whose purpose is the common cultivation of a philosophical persuasion have the same status as religious bodies.
(8) Such further regulation as may be required for the implementation of these provisions is a matter for State legislation.

Article 138 WRV [Church Property]
(1) State contributions to religious bodies, based on law or contract or special legal title, are redeemed by means of State legislation. The principles for such redemption are established by the Reich.
(2) The right to own property and other rights of religious bodies or associations in respect of their institutions, foundations, and other assets destined for purposes of worship, education or charity are guaranteed.

Article 139 WRV [Sunday and Holidays]
Sunday and the public holidays recognized by the state remain legally protected as days of rest from work and of spiritual edification.

Article 141 WRV [Religious Services]
To the extent that there exists a need for religious services and spiritual care in the army, in hospitals, prisons, or other public institutions, the religious bodies is permitted to perform religious acts; in this context there is no compulsion of any kind.
Greece - Constitution (1986)
Quote:
[Quasi-Preamble]
In the name of the Holy and Consubstantial and Indivisible Trinity, the Fifth Constitutional Assembly of Greece votes:

Article 3 [Relations of Church and State]
(1) The prevailing religion in Greece is that of the Eastern Orthodox Church of Christ. The Orthodox Church of Greece acknowledging as its head Our Lord Jesus Christ is indissolubly united in doctrine with the Great Church of Constantinople and every other Church of Christ of the same doctrine. It observes steadfastly, as they do, the holy apostolic and synodical canons and the holy tradition. It is autocephalous, exercising its sovereign rights independently of any other church, and is administered by the Holy Synod of Bishops and the Parliament Holy Synod which emanates from the former and is constituted in accordance with the Constitutional Chart of the Church and the provisions of the Patriarchal Document of 29 June 1850 and the Synodal Deed of 4 September 1928.
(2) The religious status prevailing in certain parts of the State is not contrary to the provisions of the aforegoing paragraph.
(3) The text of the Holy Scriptures shall be maintained unaltered. The official translation thereof into any other linguistic form, without the sanction of the Autocephalous Church of Greece and the Great Church of Christ in Constantinople, is prohibited.

Article 13 [Religion]
(1) The freedom of religious conscience is inviolable. The enjoyment of civil and individual rights does not depend on the religious conviction of each individual.
(2) Every known religion is free and the forms of worship thereof shall be practiced without any hindrance by the State and under protection of the law. The exercise of worship shall not contravene public order or offend morals. Proselytizing is prohibited.
(3) The ministers of all religions are subject to the same obligations towards the State and to the same state supervision as the ministers of the established religion.
(4) No person shall, by reason of his religious convictions, be exempt from discharging his obligations to the State, or refuse to comply with the laws.
(5) No oath shall be imposed without a law specifying the form thereof.
Ireland - Constitution (1990)
Quote:
Preamble
In the name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Ireland, humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation, And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

Article 44 Religion
(1) The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honor religion.
(2.1) Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.
(2.2) The State guarantees not to endow any religion.
(2.3) The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.
(2.4) Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.
(2.5) Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.
(2.6) The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.
Italy - Constitution (2001)
Quote:
Article 7 [Relation between State and Church]
(1) The State and the Catholic Church shall be, each within its own order, independent and sovereign.
(2) Their relations shall be regulated by the Lateran Pacts. Such amendments to these Pacts as are accepted by both parties shall not require the procedure for Constitutional amendment.

Article 8 [Religion]
(1) All religious denominations shall be equally free before the law.
(2) Religious denominations other than Catholic shall have the right to organize themselves according to their own by-laws provided that they are not in conflict with the Italian legal system.
(3) Their relations with the State shall be regulated by law on the basis of agreements with their respective representatives.

Article 19 [Freedom of Religion]
All shall be entitled to profess their religious beliefs freely in any form, individual or in association, to promote them, and to celebrate their rites in public or in private, provided that they are not offensive to public morality.

Article 20 [Religious Associations]
The religious character and the religious or confessional aims of an association or institution shall not justify special legal limitations or special fiscal burdens for its establishment, legal capacity, or any of its activities.
Luxembourg - Constitution (1998)
Quote:
Article 19 [Freedom of Religion]
Freedom of religion and of public worship as well as freedom to express one's religious opinions are guaranteed, subject to the repression of offenses committed in the exercise of such freedoms.

Article 20 [No Forced Religion]
No one may be forced to take part in any way whatsoever in the acts and ceremonies of a religion or to observe its days of rest.

Article 22 [State and Church]
The State's intervention in the appointment and installation of heads of religions, the mode of appointing and dismissing other ministers of religion, the right of any of them to correspond with their superiors and to publish their acts and decisions, as well as the Church's relations with the State shall be made the subject of conventions to be submitted to the Chamber of Deputies for the provisions governing its intervention.

Article 106 [Salaries of Priests]
The salaries and pensions of ministers of religion shall be borne by the State and regulated by the law.
Netherlands - Constitution (1989)
Quote:
Article 6 [Religion, Belief]
(1) Everyone shall have the right to manifest freely his religion or belief, either individually or in community with others, without prejudice to his responsibility under the law.
(2) Rules concerning the exercise of this right other than in buildings and enclosed places may be laid down by Act of Parliament for the protection of health, in the interest of traffic and to combat or prevent disorders.
Portugal - Constitution (1989)
Quote:
Article 41 Freedom of Conscience, Religion, and Worship
(1) Freedom of conscience, religion, and worship are inviolable.
(2) No one may be persecuted, deprived of rights, or exempted from civil obligations or duties because of his convictions or religious practices.
(3) No one may be questioned by any authority about his or her convictions or religious practices, except for gathering of statistical data that cannot be identified individually, nor shall anyone be prejudiced by his or her refusal to reply.
(4) The churches and religious communities are separate from the State and free to organize and exercise their own ceremonies and worship.
(5) The freedom to teach any religion within its own denomination and the use of its own means of public information for the pursuit of its activities, are safeguarded.
(6) The right to be a conscientious objector is safeguarded in accordance with the law.
Spain - Constitution (1992)
Quote:
Article 16 [Religion, Belief, No State Church]
(1) Freedom of ideology, religion, and cult of individuals and communities is guaranteed without any limitation in their demonstrations other than that which is necessary for the maintenance of public order protected by law.
(2) No one may be obliged to make a declaration on his ideology, religion, or beliefs.
(3) No religion shall have a state character. The public powers shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and maintain the appropriate relations of cooperation, with the Catholic Church and other denominations.
Sweden - Constitution (1989)

United Kingdom - Legal System (no Constitution (1992)
Quote:
Section 18 Freedom of Religion
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
(1) Worship and religious teaching take place without any interference from the State. There is complete freedom of thought, conscience or form of worship and no restriction on the right of any citizen to change his or her religion. Atheists and agnostics are also free to propagate their views.
(2) A person may, however, be held guilty of blasphemous libel if he or she publishes scurrilous and offensive references to Christianity that go beyond the limits of proper controversy. This does not apply to debate and discussion about the truth of Christian doctrines.
(3) Churches and religious societies of all kinds own property, run schools and propagate their beliefs in speech and writing. Inquiries are not made about religion in population censuses or other official returns.
(4) There is no religious bar to the holding of public office except in the case of the Sovereign who must by law be a Protestant. The Church of England and the Church of Scotland are the established 'official' churches for state ceremonies of a religious nature. Their members, however, do not obtain any advantages from being members of an established church rather than of any other church.
(5) Religious education has to be provided in all schools financed from public funds and is part of the national curriculum. Parents have the right to ask for their children to be withdrawn from such classes. Some publicly maintained schools are provided by religious denominations and receive varying amounts of public finance, according to type.
(6) Television and radio programs are broadcast on religious topics; these include religious services as well as programs in which adherents of the main religions and non-believers discuss their views. Advertising aiming to promote religious ends is not permitted on television or radio.
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Old 02-11-2003, 09:29 AM   #26
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Lightbulb MEP? What MEP?

MEP stands for Member of the European Parliament...

I think the European Convention on human rights now applies trans-europa, although the appropriate elements of national constitutions may stand until legal challenge. However, the dreaded constitution will include the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which seems to nail the door shut between state and religion.

For anyone who's read this document, do you think that's a fair conclusion to draw? I posted the relevant sections earlier...
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Old 02-12-2003, 01:34 AM   #27
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Default Re: MEP? What MEP?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hugo Holbling
[B]MEP stands for Member of the European Parliament...

I think the European Convention on human rights now applies trans-europa, although the appropriate elements of national constitutions may stand until legal challenge.
Some countries have ratified the Convention as part of their constitution - and most constitutional courts interpret their own constitution in the light of the decisions of the European Court on Human Rights.

Regards,
HRG.
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Old 02-12-2003, 08:09 AM   #28
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Thumbs up A good guess, then...

Quote:
Originally posted by HRG
Some countries have ratified the Convention as part of their constitution - and most constitutional courts interpret their own constitution in the light of the decisions of the European Court on Human Rights.
That's what i thought.

Would you say the Charter of Fundamental Rights is (or rather - will be...) an improvement on the Convention, at least in terms of Church/State separation?
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Old 05-29-2003, 02:36 AM   #29
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Thumbs up Success!

Doubting north wins battle to leave God out of it

Quote:
God has failed to make an appearance in the EU's new constitution, which states that the continent's humanistic values are nourished by the civilisations of Greece and Rome.

Christians may lament His absence from the preamble written by Valéry Giscard d'Estaing and colleagues in the European convention. Secularists will be relieved.

...
From the constitution itself, which can be seen here

Quote:
Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, which, nourished first by the civilisations of Greece and Rome, characterised by spiritual impulse always present in its heritage and later by the philosophical currents of the Enlightenment, has embedded within the life of society its perception of the central role of the human person and his inviolable and inalienable rights, and of respect for law,
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Old 05-29-2003, 04:50 AM   #30
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Unfortunately, although we won on this one, there is another clause supporting religious interference in politics.
 
 

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