beyelzu

ronin,
on a christian forum recently, i argued that an atheist could choose to risk his life to save a drowning child. it is interesting that you offer a similar life-saving scenario now. now it is interesting to note that i do value integrity, empathy(maybe not to the same degree that you do on this one), honesty, and most of all human life. i feel that it is an exception. perhaps the only middle ground that we share.

as far as only seeing yourself through someone else's eyes. read sabine's posting about validation. and then tell me again that i make a false dichotomy or paint extremes when there are none. she argues that validation is something that all people need at some point in there lives and that it comes from without.

you also seem to think that i care nothing about anyone. which isnt true. if i lead you to believe this than i apologize. i do have friends that i empathize with and care about. and i go out of my way to help them because they are my friends.

in a tribal setting with only a few members in the stone age. it was important to help those that had less in order to ensure the survival of the tribe. but at that time one could literally stare to death. which doesnt happen particularly often in america. but in a capitalistic modern society. it does not make sense to punish people who strive to get ahead. if you do it often enough, people will just quit striving.

on the subject of robber barons and the like ronin. they payed wages to "ordinary" men, excanged value for value and acheived great things. vibrant companies, that in your terms employed people and helped far more less fortunate( by the way of wages and technological innovations) than charities do. thus they had a positive impact on society.

when you argue that a by helping a less fortunate, you might possibly help yourself, that is what makes more sense in a tribal setting. in america with its 300 million people what are the chances that you will actually see a person you help in a random way again.

ok, i decide that i hate welfare. and so i quit paying taxes. the government isnt just going to say hey thats ok grady. what the hell if you dont want to put some money in the pot than you dont have to. no they will make me pay the money and, if i refuse, imprison me. so spare me your "contributions in a pot" metaphor. because it is extremely inaccurate.

do you argue that i am one of the takers, and if so how?


also, on a personal note. i apologize if my style of argument, or lack there of, seems offensive. i do believe the things i say. and if i come across as overly abrupt then i do apologize.


furthermore. i do care about my friends. and some of my familty. and the one regret i have right now is that my job prevents me from trying to get custody of my nephew from my sister. i do worry that without me there to guide him, his life is going to be royally fucked. i only see him about twice a month. and while he respects and thus listens to me, he doesnt his mother. i try to help him as much as i can, but there is only so much i can do. (and yes i realize that these are benevolent acts or quite possible altruistic.)

finally, ronin. i believe in subjective morality. so something can be moral for you and i can still think its wrong. i hope this clears up any misunderstanding we have on morality and altruism. and because morality is subjective so is virtue.

Sabine Grant

Beyelzu... Ronin has to be away from this forum for a while as he has informed me that his work is keeping him busy. So please do not take his lack of reply as a lack of interest but as daily reality taking over.

In the meantime, I want to reply to the last paragraph of this post. Beyong morality there is basic human nature. What triggers in each of us a feeling of empathy for others. What triggers our grieving when facing tragedies which affect masses of people. I argue that what allows us to want to intervene in someone's life may simply be basic human nature and not morality. For that matter very moral individuals who combat crimes and unjustice may be indifferent to the misery of a homeless man. As well as a criminal may be moved by the condition of a homeless man.

Our upbringing also has a lot to do with how we respond to the misery of others whether it is self imposed or due to outside circumstances. If brought up in a nurturing home where needs were met and grace prevailed over harsh punishment ( rather than constructive discipline), we may tend to apply the same to others. If raised in a dysfunctional home, two reactions may happen : withdrawal and protecting oneself at all cost from any source of pain which includes other people's pain. Or the opposite.. a need to seek that nurturing among others and a projection of what should have been onto them.

I do not think it should be a matter of subjective morality whether we choose to help someone or not help them. It should be triggered by that instant when we walk in their shoes... better as we walk with their bare feet. As we ask ourselves " what would I need if I were in their situation?". Would my need for food and shelter and a chance to proper counseling so I can recover from circumstances be any different? Would I be any " greater" than the homeless guy I consider to be undeserving of my intervention?

That you chose to not pay taxes so your earnings do not contribute to those you evaluate to be underserving of help could also apply to the taxes anyone pays for building roads they will never use. If everyone followed your example, then our entire society would collapse. Our form of government would collapse. Anarchy would be lurking. And as far as I am concerned, that ideology cannot engender productivity between individuals.

As you will need to entrust the judiciary system to gain custody of your nephew, you will depend on the willingness of other tax payers who support that very system. To some, your custody plea may not be valid. But rather than having a micro perception of the tax system, as we choose to withold what is required by our government, we cannot honestly then expect to benefit of any system supported by our taxes.

beyelzu

sabine,

right now i am considering secular humanism, i am thinking of disgarding some but not all of my objectivism and i am definitely getting rid of subjective morality.

but the point about taxes was directly aimed at an argument of ronin's

"We all put a portion of our money into the big pot and, as one facet of responsibility, the government regulates the money where it is needed in order to help the disadvantaged and handicapped do what is needed to help themselves. Along with those who volunteer their playstation time in order to help with such activities. "


my point was that his characterization is wrong. i do not actually think that i should quit paying taxes. i do realize that i receive benefits from that taxation. i do however believe that less government is generally better.

but right now i just dont know how i feel about altruism. i have to think about it. i am not trying to be vague but i find my belief systems in a state of flux right now.

maybe one thing we have in common, i think that a person can do more good for another person than the government can. i say this because i dread the thought of my nephew getting in the government's wellmeaning but hardly benign clutches.
i think i can do more for my nephew than the government can. i only hope that i can help him.

Sabine Grant

Good morning Beyelzu! I wish you the best in your endeavor with your nephew. Custody battles can be nasty. I am still avoiding today coming to that point with my ex hubby.

Let us know how it turns out. Have a good day. Veronique.

beyelzu

i am not trying to gain custody of him currently. i have a job that requires me to travel. i dont think that my sister is a poor parent generally. she just cant handle my nephew at all. because he is so headstrong, she has considered sending him to ydc. and i think that would be the worst possible occurrence. so i try to talk to her about it. she is also pretty religious, and thinks that i am an evil atheist. john, my nephew, isnt religious, i dont think he knows what he believes yet.

i hope that you have a good day as well



grady