McD

1. There has been a marked increase in school violence

2. There has been a marked increase in drug use

3. There has been less respect for parents and teachers.

In short, every measurement of the morals of a successful society has been on the decline since God was expelled.

I don't have the research on hand, but I can guarantee you that there were no school shootings before the Supreme Court took a left turn.

You can argue Scripture all day long, but you cannot dispute these salient and incontravertable facts.


These are excerpts from an email I received. The guy must have got my address from the American Atheist guestbook.

I already have a fistful of responses, but if anyone can add a comment or two, I will give you credit.

StrictSeparationist

I think this says it all. If he actually had some real data, wouldn't he be shoving it down your throat? You might also note that in many other first-world countries, youth violence and drug abuse has risen dramatically in the past half-century or so. I don't even know how one would go about measuring "disrespect towards parents" objectively.

McD

Well, I heard on NPR a story about the history of school violence (gets the sudden inspiration to punch that exact phrase into a google search right now) and it was saying that there is a long history of school violence.

I also am going to tell him that there were no nuclear weapons before women got the vote.

It is obvious that this is an example of the fallacy of post hoc; ergo propter hoc, however, I would like to show other reasons to reject his uneducated guess. Real studies; the sort of studies he admits he doesn't have... but I am not a sociologist.

I remember that one of the recent incidents of school violence was in a Christian school, which damages his position.

I am basically asking for help in developing a coherent argument against this guy. I can debate creationism/evolution pretty well. I can really tear fundies up when they try to pull out the old 2nd Law argument and I am pretty good with Church/State issues as well, but this guy's approach is different. He knows that the US is not supposed to be a Christian nation, he just thinks that it should be for the good of everyone.

Ab_Normal

How about:

Ever since they added "under God" to the Pledge:
1. There has been a marked increase in school violence

2. There has been a marked increase in drug use

3. There has been less respect for parents and teachers.

In short, every measurement of the morals of a successful society has been on the decline since God was added.

sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander (evil snicker)...

edited to add: I apologize, I know you were looking for a more substantive response, but I just couldn't resist.

ScumDog

There is no way to link "removing god from schools" with those "facts" that you can't even back up. Also, when was god in the school? The only schools that prayed outloud or mentioned the bible were mostly deep southern schools, anyway. So you are wrong, dead wrong, and oh-so-wrong. All three!

Edit: I mean the e-mail is wrong, dead wrong, and oh-so-wrong

McD

NO NO NO!!! That is wonderful! Every little bit counts! I hope that some christians chime in on this post and let's try to turn in into a debate. Let's kick this issue around a little.

ScumDog

First they need to show god was in the generic school in the first place.

Rusting Car Bumper

Actually I equate these with the rise of fundamentalism. Fudamentalism, the beginning of the turn fo the republican party, the creation of groups like the John Birch Society and Macrthyism mark the beginning of this trend.

Further, the trend seems to start with putting In God We Trust on our paper money, making it our national motto, and adding Under God to the pledge.

Also Postmodernism starts to rise at this time as well.

In fact America begins to rise as the preemminent world power at this time as well.

I don't know were there? I recall a case where a kid blew up part of his school which resulted in the largest death toll at an american school ever. That was in the 20s if i am not mistaken.

Further, if God was on our side before that then why did we have two world wars, a depression, Pearl Harbor, the Civil War, two presidential assasinations, and a host of other calamities?

DC

Ab_Normal

Thanks, McDuffie.

livius drusus

These cliche morality pimps always forget post-WWII movement of public school consolidation. Small schools where every student was a person instead of a statistic were once the norm in this country. It's a lot harder to be disrespectful, violent, and/or sneak a doob in the bathroom when there are a hundred students in the whole school and the teachers eat dinner with your parents every week.

Some stats from this article: