Eric Starnes

I think i can, i have doubts but i really do think i can.

This is not just "some random discussion board" this is the discussion board on the website that i discovered the afternoon i discovered what the word atheist meant. The afternoon i heard wispers behind my back everywhere i went at school. The afternoon my best friends looked at me like i was about to shoot someone. This is the discussion board on the website that told me i was not alone in the world. That there are people out there somewhere that wouldnt wonder if i worship the devil or am a psycopath. That there are good reasons to believe that there is no god and that i am not a bad person for not participitating in the recitation of the lords prayer before the pep rallies. This is the site that helped a "baby atheist" survive in the bible belt.

ju'iblex

well, i dont claim to have all the answers, and i have come to live with that, but whatever you do, please dont just cave in to societal pressure. Stick around here, and go to a christian forum as well if you like, listen to both sides of the story and get yourself equated with both groups of people. Thats all the advice i can offer.

Eric Starnes

Thanks for the advice, i really do appreciate it even if it didnt seem like it in my previous posts.

ju'iblex

no problem. honestly, the <majority> of people here are really very nice once you get to know them

lisarea

Hi, Eric.

It's easy for some of us to forget that Pascal's Wager is more than an easy categorizable fallacy for many people, just because we hear it so often, and have probably dealt with it ourselves at some distant point in the past. But the reason it's so common is that it is quite compelling.

My mother has a friend who only part jokingly says that she chose Christianity because it offered better 'stuff' than any of the other options. She says it as though it's sort of a joke, but just in the way she lives her life, constantly begging and cajoling her god for more stuff--to punish her enemies, to reward her with material gifts--it's obvious that there's some element of truth to it, too. She believes that God once stole a car battery for her.

However, and I can only speak from my personal perspective, the value of life is in learning and appreciating the world around me for what it is--not what I want it to be.

As an atheist, I don't have any scripture to guide me, and as such, I have to make my own decisions about what is right and wrong, what's moral and ethical, why we're all here, what our place is in the morass of stuff around us, and how we each should relate to that. And I won't lie to you. It's a pain in the ass sometimes. But like so many other things, the things that are genuinely valuable are those you have to work for.

I own and understand my perspectives, my opinions, and my stances on issues, simply because I haven't gained them by subscribing to some overall belief system that lays them out for me. I've thought these things through, and come to conclusions and understandings that are uniquely mine. As such, I know that I am contributing to the human community in a way that I could not if I simply allowed some prescribed belief system to tell me what I think. I won't pretend that I'm making some hugeass contribution to the knowledge horde of humanity or anything, but I do know that I'm adding to human discourse in some small way, at least.

I believe that the greatest thing in the human experience is knowledge. The feeling of having an epiphany is more invigorating and pleasurable than any other feeling in the world. And before you ask, yes, I have had sex.

If there's any one thing that approaches the concept of 'sin' in my perspective, it's ignorance. Human beings, for whatever reason, are inclined to think almost as much as they're inclined to breathe and procreate. We're irresistably compelled to do it, it gives us enormous pleasure, and it helps us advance our goals as individuals and as a species. The idea of simply handing over our right to think and come to our own conclusions and allowing religious leaders to tell us what we believe is bordering on obscene to me. It's like just giving up a part of our humanity.

It's simply not worth it to be to spend the life I have following some prescribed line of thinking and belief in order to gain some nebulous reward in an afterlife that may or may not exist. And in classic circular reasoning, I know that, if there were some big benevolent superhuman entity up in the sky who created me and loved me, it would not make me give up the one thing that brings me the greatest fulfillment just to see my enemies smited and walk on streets of gold after I die.

JCS

Secular Humanism(secular philosophy most appealing to me) Cost:

1. No easy moral answers.
2. No large communities anywere.
3. Fear of death.
4. Have to face the meaninglessness/hopelessness of the universe.
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1. Easy moral answers? Compared to what? Ever watch christians fight amongst each other over what is considered moral or not?

2. You live on a planet with several billion people, just how big of a community do you desire?

3. Death is the end game of life, are you sure it isn't life you fear?

4. Personally the universe can look out for itself. I reserve meaning for my life and hope for my childrens future. I can only look after the little picture and hope that my efforts have some positive impact on the big picture.





Christianity: Benefits

1. Hope for everlasting life in heaven.
2. Support from strong communities just about anywhere in the world.
3. Answers to almost every moral problem, and spiritual advisors for new problems.
4. No harrassment because of being atheist.
5. I can finally be accepted as a "true" american.
6. My life will have "cosmic" meaning and direction.
7. "Personal relationship" with creater of the universe.
8. Satisfaction of knowing bad people will burn in hell.
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1. That is only a benifit if it is true.

2. Support in what sense? They help re-enforce the group belief but outside their church they find themselves in conflict with other churchs and other political groups - The true christian position.

3. Frankly their moral answers usually create as many problems as they claim to solve. Their morality is usually directed towards others that they don't aprove of and it is founded on the presumption of inherited guilt. You start out as a worthless sinner and die a worthless sinner.

4. True, instead fellow christians harrass you for not being a true christian.

5. If you need confirmation from someone who defines unamerican as not a christian, you have deeper issues than what religion will be able to solve.

6. Your life will still only have as much meaning as you allow for. The only difference is you give credit to the meaning to a unsubstanciated being. How this is an improvement is beyond me.

7. Well if you can convince yourself of that why can't you convince yourself to find a personal relationship with humanity?

8. Under certain christian beliefs bad people go to heaven too. A person can murder someone and if he believes jebus died for his sins he is in. Also if his innocent victim did not believe this, they go to hell. Sounds like a real fair and logical system to me.

Castaway

Eric:

I lost my faith in god less than a year ago. Since then, I have had feelings similar to yours. I wondered if I could be a good person without god and if my life would have any meaning, any purpose, without god?

After I lost my faith in god, I struggled with this feeling that I was a "bad" person because I could not believe. I knew in my head that some of this feeling came from pressure from others and from society, but I was not sure. What if I could not be a good person without god? I decided that I had to know. I also decided that if I could not find ways of being a good person without god then I would, like you, find a way to believe again.

All this lead me to think a lot about what it means to be a good and compassionate person. I thought more about these issues after my deconversion than I ever did as a believer, and what I have concluded so far is, yes I can be a good person without a god. I don't need a god in my life to be a good person. I value people and life and I am willing to do more to help others now than I did as a believer. I found, contrary to what I was taught, that morality was independent of god and religion. Once I understood this, I didn't feel so strong a need to believe.

Having a purpose in life is a more complicated issue. I do believe that is important. Only now, I draw inspiration from other people. So many nonbelievers have contributed to making this world a better place. They made their contributions in science, politics and the arts. Their ideals were independent of religion. Truth, justice, freedom, beauty.

If you try to live up to your human potential and your ideals, and you make your contribution, this helps humanity, doesn't it? Isn't that purpose enough?

Castaway

the_cave

Eric--first of all, contgratulations on escaping Objectivism! I say this not as a believer, but as a human being. I mean it. Objectivism has some good things going for it, like its values of freedom and honest analysis, but it's got some dogmatism issues, to say the least (sorry if I have offended any Objectivists out there. Maybe we can start a thread!) Obviously religion, uh, has some of the same problems...to say the least...

Nevertheless, I encourage you to explore religion anyway, but an important reason for that is simply because you indicate it means something to you. If it's meaningful for you, by all means, find out about the things that mean something to you. Mostly I would also encourage you, if Christianity is what draws you the most, to find out more about the varieties and diversity of Christian religion. It sounds like it might be more diverse than you suspect...

It sounds as though you have dropped a paradigm (and a very forceful paradigm indeed), and as a result can't make any sense out of any data. Your yearning for meaningfulness and hope are of course quite human, and are a part of everyone's life, atheist, believer, or anyone else. However, I think that some of your "costs" of religion are inaccurate, and some of the "benefits" you state are distasteful...indeed, some of the "costs" of humanism aren't specific to humanism; they're a part of the human condition. So maybe I would suggest a closer look at both. At this point, that's the best advice I can give here.

I hope you find your path in life.

Sabine Grant

Hi Eric and welcome to the forum!
First of... cheer up! Looking for meaning in your life is a normal and good thing to do. Most of us have gone thru that process. Meds do not always resolve depressive thoughts...especialy if triggered by a metaphysical quest.
Being a"true American" cannot be an advantage in those times when the country is dividing over the issues of war with Irak. Being one who promotes peace may be more of an advantage. ( being french I cannot help but entrust diplomacy rather than war).

Eternal life? I do not think it is the honest approach to embracing the christian faith. You either do it because you find validity and positive themes for yourself in the teachings of Christ or you sort of bargain your way thru pretending you love God under the condition He grants you heaven.

Being converted because someone convinced you that it is the best for you.... no. Christian faith, a genuine one, not impressed on you by anyone, comes as a long process of wanting and needing a relationship with God thru Christ. It starts with aknowledging your human condition and evaluating if you desire to depend on God to improve it. It is a very personal introspection. Once you evaluate if you need to depend on God or yourself, only then can you consider exploring christian faith.

It is important you not be focused on how christians act to determine if you want a relationship with God thru Christ. Focus on Christ not men. If you become a christian, you will need to expect the best only from Christ not from people. You will need to not have high expectations of people. You will need to work on yourself before you can pertain to inspire anyone else. It is a tough and challenging path to take.

Your quest will not be so much " how can I be happy" but mostly " how can I help?".

In any case, remember that you are valuable as a person. You are unique yet you feel and think as many others do. I suggest to you that you go on nature walks and delight in what nature offers to you as a free demonstration of the meaning of life. If you will deplore the flight of a falcon sweeping down on a sparrow, you will marvel at the designs on a butterfly's wings. Aknowledge the uniqueness of birds' songs and fragrances of various plants and flowers. Just watch the whole show. Pantheism played a role in my own spiritual walk.

Seek, explore, observe and allow whichever beauty out there to guide you.( the beach is a great place for that too).
A bientot, Veronique.

ju'iblex

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: Yes, tell someone who is quite obviously in a very confusing and frustrating part of their life to 'cheer up'.

and supposedly making meaning was hollow!