Freethought & Rationalism Archive

El_Hober · 03-23-2003, 09:29 PM

I am considering the idea that all moral codes are a result of a want to place trust in others. We want to trust others to make decisions beneficial to ourselves, and this leads to trust that morals will protect us from rape, theft, lying, etc., all of which are things that make the target unhappy. Also, this trust is also a trust that others will do things that help others, and not only themselves.

just a thought...

Sabine Grant · 03-24-2003, 01:36 PM

Salut El Hober... In an organized society such as ours we have little choice but to trust that legislators and the government will make the right decisions for us. However, the system has shown that many of the people we entrust with the power to decide for us will fail to consider our best interest. Their personal agenda seems to take over....
I do not think it can be avoided. ( at least in the political realm). On the individual level, I believe personaly that I can entrust certain people to consider my best interest if empowered to make decisions that will impact me. But to get to that level of trust that their ethics will respect my interests, I have to have the certainty that they have a degree of affection towards me which will prevent them from doing any harm to my person. I know it sounds very simplistic... but that is my personal perception.
In terms of altruism and helping others, there are situations where one has to help someone against his or her will.
Take the example of the aging grand ma who insists on living on her own when she can barely fix herself a meal or keep herself clean. The adult children will need to intervene to protect her from herself basicaly....so at times, our morals have to take over someone else's and for his or her best interest.
I do not know if I have added water to your well....

dunadan · 03-24-2003, 04:35 PM

I have a slightly different slant on this. I think that moral codes have developed because of our need to trust others. From societies of hunter-gatherers to modern culture, there is a definite benefit to the species if you are a team player. However, within any society, there is also a benefit to being selfish. Moral codes are designed to provide a common framework for us to work together as well as set boundaries to ethical behavior.

kkholiday · 03-25-2003, 06:59 PM

Some people actually like helping people; I feel better about myself when I know I have helped someone else (for whatever that's worth). That feeling was probably a result of parental conditioning and not an inherited trait, but I still try to do my "good deed for the day" and go out of my way to help people when I can.

Holiday

Pyrrho · 03-28-2003, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by El_Hober
I am considering the idea that all moral codes are a result of a want to place trust in others. We want to trust others to make decisions beneficial to ourselves, and this leads to trust that morals will protect us from rape, theft, lying, etc., all of which are things that make the target unhappy. Also, this trust is also a trust that others will do things that help others, and not only themselves.

just a thought...

What you are saying reminds me of what Glaucon states in Plato's Republic (I recommend the Cornford translation published by Oxford). He states:

"What people say is that to do wrong is, in itself, a desirable thing; on the other hand, it is not at all desirable to suffer wrong, and the harm to the sufferer outweighs the advantage to the doer. Consequently, when men have had a taste of both, those who have not the power to seize the advantage and escape the harm decide that they would be better off if they made a compact neither to do wrong nor to suffer it. Hence they began to make laws and covenants with one another; and whatever the law prescribed they called lawful and right. That is what right or justice is and how it came into existence; it stands half-way between the best thing of all�to do wrong with impunity�and the worst, which is to suffer wrong without the power to retaliate. So justice is accepted as a compromise, and valued, not as good in itself, but for the lack of power to do wrong; no man worthy of the name, who had that power, would ever enter into such a compact with anyone; he would be mad if he did."

Of course, Glaucon was arguing for a position he did not believe, but wanted to see Socrates refute it.

meritocrat · 03-31-2003, 07:01 AM

I feel altruism is a misguided notion.

Pyrrho · 04-01-2003, 11:42 AM

http://ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext03/nqpmr10.txt

But to give you an interesting sampling (since I know full well that most people do not like reading very much):

Quote:

Whatever contradiction may vulgarly be supposed between the SELFISH and SOCIAL sentiments or dispositions, they are really no more opposite than selfish and ambitious, selfish and revengeful, selfish and vain. It is requisite that there be an original propensity of some kind, in order to be a basis to self-love, by giving a relish to the objects of its pursuit; and none more fit for this purpose than benevolence or humanity. The goods of fortune are spent in one gratification or another: the miser who accumulates his annual income, and lends it out at interest, has really spent it in the gratification of his avarice. And it would be difficult to show why a man is more a loser by a generous action, than by any other method of expense; since the utmost which he can attain by the most elaborate selfishness, is the indulgence of some affection.

Now if life, without passion, must be altogether insipid and tiresome; let a man suppose that he has full power of modelling his own disposition, and let him deliberate what appetite or desire he would choose for the foundation of his happiness and enjoyment. Every affection, he would observe, when gratified by success, gives a satisfaction proportioned to its force and violence; but besides this advantage, common to all, the immediate feeling of benevolence and friendship, humanity and kindness, is sweet, smooth, tender, and agreeable, independent of all fortune and accidents. These virtues are besides attended with a pleasing consciousness or remembrance, and keep us in humour with ourselves as well as others; while we retain the agreeable reflection of having done our part towards mankind and society. And though all men show a jealousy of our success in the pursuits of avarice and ambition; yet are we almost sure of their good-will and good wishes, so long as we persevere in the paths of virtue, and employ ourselves in the execution of generous plans and purposes. What other passion is there where we shall find so many advantages united; an agreeable sentiment, a pleasing consciousness, a good reputation? But of these truths, we may observe, men are, of themselves, pretty much convinced; nor are they deficient in their duty to society, because they would not wish to be generous, friendly, and humane; but because they do not feel themselves such.

Treating vice with the greatest candour, and making it all possible concessions, we must acknowledge that there is not, in any instance, the smallest pretext for giving it the preference above virtue, with a view of self-interest; except, perhaps, in the case of justice, where a man, taking things in a certain light, may often seem to be a loser by his integrity. And though it is allowed that, without a regard to property, no society could subsist; yet according to the imperfect way in which human affairs are conducted, a sensible knave, in particular incidents, may think that an act of iniquity or infidelity will make a considerable addition to his fortune, without causing any considerable breach in the social union and confederacy. That HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY, may be a good general rule, but is liable to many exceptions; and he, it may perhaps be thought, conducts himself with most wisdom, who observes the general rule, and takes advantage of all the exceptions.

I must confess that, if a man think that this reasoning much requires an answer, it would be a little difficult to find any which will to him appear satisfactory and convincing. If his heart rebel not against such pernicious maxims, if he feel no reluctance to the thoughts of villainy or baseness, he has indeed lost a considerable motive to virtue; and we may expect that his practice will be answerable to his speculation. But in all ingenuous natures, the antipathy to treachery and roguery is too strong to be counter-balanced by any views of profit or pecuniary advantage. Inward peace of mind, consciousness of integrity, a satisfactory review of our own conduct; these are circumstances, very requisite to happiness, and will be cherished and cultivated by every honest man, who feels the importance of them.

Such a one has, besides, the frequent satisfaction of seeing knaves, with all their pretended cunning and abilities, betrayed by their own maxims; and while they purpose to cheat with moderation and secrecy, a tempting incident occurs, nature is frail, and they give into the snare; whence they can never extricate themselves, without a total loss of reputation, and the forfeiture of all future trust and confidence with mankind.

But were they ever so secret and successful, the honest man, if he has any tincture of philosophy, or even common observation and reflection, will discover that they themselves are, in the end, the greatest dupes, and have sacrificed the invaluable enjoyment of a character, with themselves at least, for the acquisition of worthless toys and gewgaws. How little is requisite to supply the necessities of nature? And in a view to pleasure, what comparison between the unbought satisfaction of conversation, society, study, even health and the common beauties of nature, but above all the peaceful reflection on one's own conduct; what comparison, I say, between these and the feverish, empty amusements of luxury and expense? These natural pleasures, indeed, are really without price; both because they are below all price in their attainment, and above it in their enjoyment.

03-23-2003, 09:29 PM	#1
El_Hober Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 31	Trust and Altruism I am considering the idea that all moral codes are a result of a want to place trust in others. We want to trust others to make decisions beneficial to ourselves, and this leads to trust that morals will protect us from rape, theft, lying, etc., all of which are things that make the target unhappy. Also, this trust is also a trust that others will do things that help others, and not only themselves. just a thought...

03-25-2003, 06:59 PM	#4
kkholiday Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: P'cola, Florida Posts: 226	altruism Some people actually like helping people; I feel better about myself when I know I have helped someone else (for whatever that's worth). That feeling was probably a result of parental conditioning and not an inherited trait, but I still try to do my "good deed for the day" and go out of my way to help people when I can. Holiday

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03-24-2003, 01:36 PM	#2
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Salut El Hober... In an organized society such as ours we have little choice but to trust that legislators and the government will make the right decisions for us. However, the system has shown that many of the people we entrust with the power to decide for us will fail to consider our best interest. Their personal agenda seems to take over.... I do not think it can be avoided. ( at least in the political realm). On the individual level, I believe personaly that I can entrust certain people to consider my best interest if empowered to make decisions that will impact me. But to get to that level of trust that their ethics will respect my interests, I have to have the certainty that they have a degree of affection towards me which will prevent them from doing any harm to my person. I know it sounds very simplistic... but that is my personal perception. In terms of altruism and helping others, there are situations where one has to help someone against his or her will. Take the example of the aging grand ma who insists on living on her own when she can barely fix herself a meal or keep herself clean. The adult children will need to intervene to protect her from herself basicaly....so at times, our morals have to take over someone else's and for his or her best interest. I do not know if I have added water to your well....

03-24-2003, 04:35 PM	#3
dunadan Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 499	I have a slightly different slant on this. I think that moral codes have developed because of our need to trust others. From societies of hunter-gatherers to modern culture, there is a definite benefit to the species if you are a team player. However, within any society, there is also a benefit to being selfish. Moral codes are designed to provide a common framework for us to work together as well as set boundaries to ethical behavior.

03-31-2003, 07:01 AM	#6
meritocrat Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 2,608	I feel altruism is a misguided notion.

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