Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Principia · 11-30-2002, 07:14 AM

On a more serious note, <a href="http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/9/3" target="_blank">this</a> is a good website describing the supraluminal effect. Note that the conclusion is that no laws of physics have been broken.

DrLao · 11-30-2002, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tgamble:
Don't mean to sound stupid but could you explain that a bit? Thanks!

Radar guns to catch speeders work by using the Doppler effect. The relative movement of the speeder and the cop holding the radar gun results in a frequency change in the radar echo picked up by the gun's reciever.

Laser guns work differently, though, and don't use the Doppler effect. They determine range and divide that by the time between range measurements to get velocity.

[ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: DrLao ]

Bubba · 11-30-2002, 08:07 AM

This same gentleman suggested that redshift had only been observed on sound, not light. I of course quickly asked him what red sounded like. Amazing the stupidity of Hovinds followers, isn't it?

Bubba

DrLao · 11-30-2002, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bubba:
This same gentleman suggested that redshift had only been observed on sound, not light. I of course quickly asked him what red sounded like. Amazing the stupidity of Hovinds followers, isn't it?

Ha! Of course, and now I feel really stupid. I was too busy thinking of examples of red-shifted electromagnetic waves to realize the absurdity of the original statement.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 11-30-2002, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tgamble:
Quantum Physics: According to the Big Bang Theory, all the matter in the universe combined into a small dot (smaller than the period on this page, billions and billions of years ago). One of the laws of quantum physics is that matter cannot compress past a certain point.

Idiot alert.

Quote:

Liquids (ex: water) do not compress at all (unless you change the temperature, then it condenses, and it still cannot condense past a certain point) no matter how much pressure you put on it.

This is utterly false. It just takes an assload of pressure to compress liquids. It can be done though.

Quote:

So if matter cannot compress past a certain point, how could all the matter in the universe compress into a dot?

Must...control...anger...

Quote:

Ok, so lets assume that the big bang theory somehow defies this law of physics. In order for that dot to explode, it must have energy. That means that, not only did all the matter in the universe combine into a dot, all the energy in the universe combined into that dot. Wouldn�t that energy prevent the matter from combining (if the energy caused that dot to explode).

E=mc^2. Mass and energy are the same.

Quote:

Ok, so lets assume that somehow all the matter and energy did combine into that dot. Wouldn�t gravity force that dot to stay into a dot? There would be so much gravity that the matter from the dot couldn�t escape.

Must..contain...anger...

Quote:

Hypothetically speaking, lets assume that dot did explode. A bomb has energy in it. In order for that bomb to explode, something must ignite that bomb, start a chemical reaction, and release the energy from that bomb. In order for that dot to explode, something has to ignite that dot and start a chemical reaction. What ignited the dot?

This is a non-chemical reaction.

Quote:

Lets say that the dot managed to somehow explode. According to the big bang theory, all the gluons formed together to form atoms.

This is moronically wrong.

Quote:

Do you know how complex a single atom is? The odds of gluons combining together at random and forming a single atom are slim to none.

Considering gluons don't do that, they're right.
But the thing is, under heat and pressure, things combine. Fusion.

Quote:

The odds of those gluons combining together throughout the entire universe, and forming all the atoms in the universe (every atom being identical to each other) are virtually impossible.

This is stupid. Beyond stupid.

Quote:

One of the laws of thermodynamics is that things tend to go from a state of order, to a state of disorder, unless work is done to put things back into a state of order. This defies the big bang theory and evolution.

No, it doesn't. Not in the least.

Quote:

If you have a group of children on a marry-go-round, and you spun those children really fast, when you reach about 100 miles per hour, those kids are going to fly off the marry � go � round. There is a law of thermodynamics that states that every kid will be spinning in the same direction. According to the big bang theory, after the explosion, everything started spinning really fast (and that�s how everything was formed). If this is true, why do we have two planets, and four moons that spin in the opposite direction.

Collisions mess things up.

Quote:

When a bomb explodes, all the energy and matter from that bomb is evenly distributed. Why isn�t the universe evenly distributed.

Gravity. And the expansion of the space between things.

Quote:

We have one galaxy, long distances of space, followed by another galaxy (ask your teacher how far the Milky Way is from the next galaxy). To explain this, some scientists try to say that there are masses of matter that fill up those gaps. These masses of matter produce so much gravity that it sucks up light, therefor we cannot see the masses.

This is wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong wrong.
They do not "suck up light" they either do not emmit it or do not reflect it.
The mass exists within galaxies, and we know it exists due to the rotational speeds.

Quote:

This has never been tested, and there is no evidence that gravity affects light.

Yes there is.

Quote:

If this were true, wouldn�t these masses of material cause so much gravity that they would suck up all the stars right next to them?

Considering the false premises, this doesn't need to be addressed.

Quote:

Wouldn�t these masses of matter prevent us from seeing the galaxies behind them (block their view).

Since the premise was false, this doesn't need to be addressed.

Quote:

For more information that disproves the big bang theory, click here.
<a href="http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=faq&specific=1" target="_blank">http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=faq&specific=1</a>

This information is also false.

eh · 11-30-2002, 10:11 AM

It basically comes down to the fact these creationists think the big bang was a dot that spun out of control and exploded. You can tell them a million times the BB was not an explosion, but it won't help. They will keep on using strawman arguments till they're blue in the face.

thebeave · 11-30-2002, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tgamble:
Quantum Physics: According to the Big Bang Theory, all the matter in the universe combined into a small dot (smaller than the period on this page, billions and billions of years ago). One of the laws of quantum physics is that matter cannot compress past a certain point. Liquids (ex: water) do not compress at all (unless you change the temperature, then it condenses, and it still cannot condense past a certain point) no matter how much pressure you put on it. In a car, if water gets stuck in your cylinders, that water will not compress no matter how much pressure you put on it. Oil is used for car shocks because it does not compress no matter how much pressure you put on it. Air (or gasses) does compress, but it doesn’t compress past a certain point. So if matter cannot compress past a certain point, how could all the matter in the universe compress into a dot? Ok, so lets assume that the big bang theory somehow defies this law of physics. In order for that dot to explode, it must have energy. That means that, not only did all the matter in the universe combine into a dot, all the energy in the universe combined into that dot. Wouldn’t that energy prevent the matter from combining (if the energy caused that dot to explode). Ok, so lets assume that somehow all the matter and energy did combine into that dot. Wouldn’t gravity force that dot to stay into a dot? There would be so much gravity that the matter from the dot couldn’t escape. Hypothetically speaking, lets assume that dot did explode. A bomb has energy in it. In order for that bomb to explode, something must ignite that bomb, start a chemical reaction, and release the energy from that bomb. In order for that dot to explode, something has to ignite that dot and start a chemical reaction. What ignited the dot? Lets say that the dot managed to somehow explode. According to the big bang theory, all the gluons formed together to form atoms. Do you know how complex a single atom is? The odds of gluons combining together at random and forming a single atom are slim to none. The odds of those gluons combining together throughout the entire universe, and forming all the atoms in the universe (every atom being identical to each other) are virtually impossible.
One of the laws of thermodynamics is that things tend to go from a state of order, to a state of disorder, unless work is done to put things back into a state of order. This defies the big bang theory and evolution.

If you have a group of children on a marry-go-round, and you spun those children really fast, when you reach about 100 miles per hour, those kids are going to fly off the marry – go – round. There is a law of thermodynamics that states that every kid will be spinning in the same direction. According to the big bang theory, after the explosion, everything started spinning really fast (and that’s how everything was formed). If this is true, why do we have two planets, and four moons that spin in the opposite direction.

When a bomb explodes, all the energy and matter from that bomb is evenly distributed. Why isn’t the universe evenly distributed. We have one galaxy, long distances of space, followed by another galaxy (ask your teacher how far the Milky Way is from the next galaxy). To explain this, some scientists try to say that there are masses of matter that fill up those gaps. These masses of matter produce so much gravity that it sucks up light, therefor we cannot see the masses. This has never been tested, and there is no evidence that gravity affects light. If this were true, wouldn’t these masses of material cause so much gravity that they would suck up all the stars right next to them? Wouldn’t these masses of matter prevent us from seeing the galaxies behind them (block their view).

For more information that disproves the big bang theory, click here.
<a href="http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=faq&specific=1" target="_blank">http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=faq&specific=1</a>

This reminds me of a typical creationist vs scientist debate where the creationist's explanation is so full of misinformation, nonsense, confusion, lies and abusrdities that it leaves the scientists in a state of shock and mentally paralyzed as they try to figure out how to even begin to respond to it. And as the scientists grope and stumble for the words needed to respond, the creationist will say, "See?... they're speechless and fumbling because they know I'm right and they can't refute it unless they can come up with a bunch of lies!". And the fundy sheep in the audience who don't know any better are nodding their heads and clapping, laughing, and saying "Amen, brother". What world we line in...

tgamble · 11-30-2002, 06:14 PM

Quote:

There is a lot of evidence of the flood. Look at the grand cannon.

tgamble · 11-30-2002, 06:35 PM

One of the links given was to Christiananswers.net where we find this:

Quote:

5. Many strata are too tightly bent.
In many mountainous areas, strata thousands of feet thick are bent and folded into hairpin shapes. The conventional geologic time-scale says these formations were deeply buried and solidified for hundreds of millions of years before they were bent. Yet the folding occurred without cracking, with radii so small that the entire formation had to be still wet and unsolidified when the bending occurred. This implies that the folding occurred less than thousands of years after deposition.(13)

Also interested in #6. I think #7 is Gentry's work isn't it? Thanks!

Bubba · 11-30-2002, 07:20 PM

Random stupidity from a few guys who flunked out as crash test dummies and found careers as creationists...

"Yes, A flood strong enough to move all the sediments of the earth would tend to mix the different types of animals and plants into one big mishmash. Scientists agree that oil came from fossils (very consistent with a flood)."

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

The fact of the matter is that fossils are always found in the wrong order. Scientists use the layer of rock to date the fossils, and they use the fossils to date the layer of rock. This is circular reasoning (once again). The theory behind this is that the older a fossil is, the lower under the ground it is. So scientists figure that certain fossils won�t be found below a certain level (according to evolution). Unfortunately for them, many fossils that weren�t supposed to be at certain levels were there. This could only mean one of two things, the method that they�re using is inaccurate or that the method that they�re using is accurate and we were all created simultaneously. <a href="http://www.rae.org/ch03tud.html" target="_blank">http://www.rae.org/ch03tud.html</a>

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Now that I have disproven the Big Bang Hypothesis (since no one can give me any �logical� explanations to any of my questions about the Big Bang Hypothesis. By the way, the Big Bang Hypothesis also defies a law that states, matter (and / or energy) can neither be created nor destroyed. Of course the Bible states that, �Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness� (2nd Peter; 3: 3 � 11)) my goal is to get people saved. �For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.� (Ephesians 2: 8 � 9). �For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.� (John 3: 16 � 21). All you have to do to get saved is pray; Admit to GOD that you�re a sinner, tell GOD that you accept Jesus into your heart, and ask Jesus to forgive you from your sins (and mean it). It�s that simple. �Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.� (Hebrew 13: 5 � 6). Once Jesus is in your heart (once you ask Jesus in your heart and MEAN it), he will never leave you. �And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.� (Acts 8: 36 � 38). Once you get saved you should get baptized to show everyone that you believe in Jesus (it�s symbolic. It symbolizes that you�re a sinner and Jesus washes away your sins).

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

"Another fact that you seem to ignore is that the flood story in the Bible is actually a conglomeration of different earlier flood myths."

According to the Bible (if you backtrack everything) the flood occurred approximately 4,400 years ago. It would be difficult for anyone to track the exact order of so many events that long ago (especially since they didn�t keep track of things as well as people do now). However, the evidence shows that the events in the Bible did happen (ex: the flood).

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Good for a Saturday nigh laugh anyways.

Bubba

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11-30-2002, 07:14 AM	#21
Principia Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: anywhere Posts: 1,976	On a more serious note, <a href="http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/9/3" target="_blank">this</a> is a good website describing the supraluminal effect. Note that the conclusion is that no laws of physics have been broken.

11-30-2002, 08:07 AM	#23
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	This same gentleman suggested that redshift had only been observed on sound, not light. I of course quickly asked him what red sounded like. Amazing the stupidity of Hovinds followers, isn't it? Bubba

11-30-2002, 10:11 AM	#26
eh Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 624	It basically comes down to the fact these creationists think the big bang was a dot that spun out of control and exploded. You can tell them a million times the BB was not an explosion, but it won't help. They will keep on using strawman arguments till they're blue in the face.

11-30-2002, 07:20 PM	#30
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Random stupidity from a few guys who flunked out as crash test dummies and found careers as creationists... "Yes, A flood strong enough to move all the sediments of the earth would tend to mix the different types of animals and plants into one big mishmash. Scientists agree that oil came from fossils (very consistent with a flood)." <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> The fact of the matter is that fossils are always found in the wrong order. Scientists use the layer of rock to date the fossils, and they use the fossils to date the layer of rock. This is circular reasoning (once again). The theory behind this is that the older a fossil is, the lower under the ground it is. So scientists figure that certain fossils won�t be found below a certain level (according to evolution). Unfortunately for them, many fossils that weren�t supposed to be at certain levels were there. This could only mean one of two things, the method that they�re using is inaccurate or that the method that they�re using is accurate and we were all created simultaneously. <a href="http://www.rae.org/ch03tud.html" target="_blank">http://www.rae.org/ch03tud.html</a> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> Now that I have disproven the Big Bang Hypothesis (since no one can give me any �logical� explanations to any of my questions about the Big Bang Hypothesis. By the way, the Big Bang Hypothesis also defies a law that states, matter (and / or energy) can neither be created nor destroyed. Of course the Bible states that, �Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness� (2nd Peter; 3: 3 � 11)) my goal is to get people saved. �For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.� (Ephesians 2: 8 � 9). �For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.� (John 3: 16 � 21). All you have to do to get saved is pray; Admit to GOD that you�re a sinner, tell GOD that you accept Jesus into your heart, and ask Jesus to forgive you from your sins (and mean it). It�s that simple. �Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.� (Hebrew 13: 5 � 6). Once Jesus is in your heart (once you ask Jesus in your heart and MEAN it), he will never leave you. �And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.� (Acts 8: 36 � 38). Once you get saved you should get baptized to show everyone that you believe in Jesus (it�s symbolic. It symbolizes that you�re a sinner and Jesus washes away your sins). <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> "Another fact that you seem to ignore is that the flood story in the Bible is actually a conglomeration of different earlier flood myths." According to the Bible (if you backtrack everything) the flood occurred approximately 4,400 years ago. It would be difficult for anyone to track the exact order of so many events that long ago (especially since they didn�t keep track of things as well as people do now). However, the evidence shows that the events in the Bible did happen (ex: the flood). <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> Good for a Saturday nigh laugh anyways. Bubba

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