Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bloodroot · 11-26-2002, 10:18 AM

First of all let me tell you that I have been an avid fan of this site for about a year now; I enjoy the posts and responses and have printed out many of them to do my own research and educate myself concerning seperation of church and state issues. The question I have in mind concerns mon petit chou and her 5 year old son. Every morning she takes her son to a elementary school near Maryville, TN and drops him off around 7 ish at the school entrance. Before the school starts, all of the kids go to the cafeteria to either eat a breakfast supplied by the school and/or talk among themselves before going to class. What REALLY got my attention was the mention of a church group giving bible readings to the pre-schoolers in the cafeteria.
I have two questions to ask of this:

1) since the school IS serving breakfast with school employees is school in some sort of session?

2)Since all the kids HAVE TO meet in the cafeteria, having no choice where to meet, isn't this bible reading almost forcing the kids to listen?

If this was a high school where the kids WANTED to meet in an public yet optional area, in other words, where it did not position themselves so that EVERYBODY had to hear their message, and it was before school, I have no problem whatsoever, but this seems a little different. Is this bible reading in violation of the first amendment? Please help.

dangin · 11-26-2002, 10:47 AM

I think so. Not sure though. Is the kid in the official "preschool" program run with state funds, or is this a private preschool that is renting the space from the school district?

If it is a state funded preschool it seems to be a pretty clear violation.

Glory · 11-26-2002, 10:59 AM

Welcome Bloodrot,

It certainly sounds like a violation of the establishment clause. You say that the children must report to the cafeteria and that the readings take place there during breakfast? Actually, the children do not have to be required to be there. The situation as you describe it is that if a child wants his breakfast he has to be exposed to the readings. That is not only illegal, it is despicable. These people have no morals.

This kind of thing is handled by the ACLU. First though I would approach the principal of the school and ask that those people not be allowed on campus. I consider the ACLU a last resort but don't be afraid to call them.

Glory

penumbra · 11-26-2002, 11:05 AM

from Glory

Quote:

First though I would approach the principal of the school and ask that those people not be allowed on campus

Or, ask for equal time to present a secular viewpoint!

Alonzo Fyfe · 11-26-2002, 11:47 AM

I need one other piece of information: is the presentation given to the whole body in attendance or to some subsection.

I can easily see a session in the corner -- occupying a few tables, for those students who are interested. Somebody sitting at the other end of the noisy room would not even know what was going on.

In this case, I see no cause for objection.

If not -- if all students are required to listen attentively (or even listen unattentively), then (under the assumption that this program is publicly funded) be objectionable.

Toto · 11-26-2002, 03:19 PM

I don't think that public funding should make any difference. The school should not allow its facilities to be used for proselytizing unsuspecting children without their parents' consent.

Glory · 11-26-2002, 04:47 PM

If the students were of high school age it would be bad enough. The children in question are preschoolers, though. Five years old max! One of the things children learn in preschool is to respect the authority of school and faculty. These Bible bangers are cloaking themselves in that authority. How is a four year old to know the difference between a visitor, that is there everyday, and a teacher? Also, how dare they preach to children without parental consent?! Four year olds cannot appreciate the concept of voluntary participation and if they can, they don't know what they are volunteering for. Promise them a cookie and they will sit through anything.

Glory

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

Bloodroot · 11-27-2002, 09:42 AM

Just found out last night the church that comes to the elementary school is also the church THE PRINCIPLE goes to. This made the hair on my scrotum stand (this isn't a pretty sight). Also on a side note, has anyone ever heard of the website <a href="http://www.bringyourbible.com?" target="_blank">www.bringyourbible.com</a>?

{edited by Toto to fix link - if you don't use the automatic UBB button below, remember to include white space around your link names to avoid confusing UBB}

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

beejay · 11-27-2002, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bloodroot:
<strong>Just found out last night the church that comes to the elementary school is also the church THE PRINCIPAL goes to.
[/URL]</strong>

OK, this HAS to be unconstitutional.

I guess I'd give the principal one chance to convince you otherwise, then I'd call the ACLU.

And <a href="http://www.bringyourbible.com" target="_blank">www.bringyourbible.com</a> was new to me...and very interesting.

(Bloodroot, you might edit your post to put a space before the "?" so clicking on the link will work.)

Toto · 11-27-2002, 10:03 AM

<a href="http://www.bringyourbible.com" target="_blank">www.bringyourbible.com</a>

Unbelievable!

Quote:

WED Tract Day & T-Shirt Day #2: Leave tracts at strategic places throughout school (library books, desks, lockers). (Bring more Bibles)

A calculated campaign to go to the legal limits, if not beyond, to get the Bible into schools.

But I'm all in favor of Biblical literacy - actually reading the Bible produces atheists.

Quote:

Other Possible Events or Themes to Use

TEXTBOOK COVERS! Cover your books with Christian message book covers: Like the Ten Commandments or other Bible verses. Witnessing book covers are available at Christian bookstores.

� Give a Bible to a Friend Day (An unsaved friend! Gift-wrapped with a personal note!)
� Meet for Prayer & Bible Reading Days: Before/After School or at lunch.
� Christian Candy & Toys Day: Available at your local Christian bookstore or through catalogs & the Internet.
� Boom Box Day: Tune your radio to local Christian station; play Christian tapes or CDs.
� Bumper Sticker Day: For students & staff who drive to school... and parents who drive their kids to school.
� Gideons' Day: The Gideons and other organizations which distribute Bibles or tracts at schools could do so this week.
� Christian Comic Book Day: Kids (and adults!) who might not otherwise touch a Bible will often read a comic book. The comic approach feels 'comfortable' to them. Available at Christian bookstores.
� Bible in Disguise Day: Some Bibles and paraphrased versions do not mention the word Bible on their covers. (Ex: The Book, Good News for Modern Man)
� Pastors & Clergy Day: Be involved in some part of the school day -- at the school. Visit classes? Greet students before or after school? Be visible! Wear your clerical garb & carry your Bible. Coordinate with other area clergy. Elders, nuns, deacons, deaconesses, etc. could also participate -- carrying their Bibles, too.
* Does YOUR school have a "free reading" time such as Drop Everything And Read (D.E.A.R.)? YOU should read your Bible and be seen doing so during some of those times (including study hall, etc.).

Please: Respect property! DO NOT alienate people by putting appliques or bumper stickers where you shouldn't. Do not deface your school or other people's property. Avoid creating Christian "litter".

IMPORTANT: DO NOT seek "permission" from school officials to implement SIS in your school or community. Why? Because, 1) YOU don't need it! 2) THEY cannot legally approve or deny such a request. School officials are government officials. Therefore, asking them for "permission" would put them into the no-win position of violating the so-called "separation of church & state" no matter which way they decided.
JUST DO IT! In addition to already having God's permission (and commission) to do so... you also have the Constitutional right to bring your Bible to school. Keep in mind that in addition to any "religious" significance, the Bible is also a renowned and respected reference text of history, archaeology, prose, poetry, and more. It is also the document to which America's Founding Fathers referred more than all other sources combined.

11-26-2002, 10:18 AM	#1
Bloodroot Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: upstate SC Posts: 20	Bible studies and pre-school - is this a breach of the establishment clause? First of all let me tell you that I have been an avid fan of this site for about a year now; I enjoy the posts and responses and have printed out many of them to do my own research and educate myself concerning seperation of church and state issues. The question I have in mind concerns mon petit chou and her 5 year old son. Every morning she takes her son to a elementary school near Maryville, TN and drops him off around 7 ish at the school entrance. Before the school starts, all of the kids go to the cafeteria to either eat a breakfast supplied by the school and/or talk among themselves before going to class. What REALLY got my attention was the mention of a church group giving bible readings to the pre-schoolers in the cafeteria. I have two questions to ask of this: 1) since the school IS serving breakfast with school employees is school in some sort of session? 2)Since all the kids HAVE TO meet in the cafeteria, having no choice where to meet, isn't this bible reading almost forcing the kids to listen? If this was a high school where the kids WANTED to meet in an public yet optional area, in other words, where it did not position themselves so that EVERYBODY had to hear their message, and it was before school, I have no problem whatsoever, but this seems a little different. Is this bible reading in violation of the first amendment? Please help.

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11-26-2002, 10:47 AM	#2
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	I think so. Not sure though. Is the kid in the official "preschool" program run with state funds, or is this a private preschool that is renting the space from the school district? If it is a state funded preschool it seems to be a pretty clear violation.

11-26-2002, 10:59 AM	#3
Glory Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: b Posts: 673	Welcome Bloodrot, It certainly sounds like a violation of the establishment clause. You say that the children must report to the cafeteria and that the readings take place there during breakfast? Actually, the children do not have to be required to be there. The situation as you describe it is that if a child wants his breakfast he has to be exposed to the readings. That is not only illegal, it is despicable. These people have no morals. This kind of thing is handled by the ACLU. First though I would approach the principal of the school and ask that those people not be allowed on campus. I consider the ACLU a last resort but don't be afraid to call them. Glory

11-26-2002, 11:47 AM	#5
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	I need one other piece of information: is the presentation given to the whole body in attendance or to some subsection. I can easily see a session in the corner -- occupying a few tables, for those students who are interested. Somebody sitting at the other end of the noisy room would not even know what was going on. In this case, I see no cause for objection. If not -- if all students are required to listen attentively (or even listen unattentively), then (under the assumption that this program is publicly funded) be objectionable.

11-26-2002, 03:19 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I don't think that public funding should make any difference. The school should not allow its facilities to be used for proselytizing unsuspecting children without their parents' consent.

11-26-2002, 04:47 PM	#7
Glory Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: b Posts: 673	If the students were of high school age it would be bad enough. The children in question are preschoolers, though. Five years old max! One of the things children learn in preschool is to respect the authority of school and faculty. These Bible bangers are cloaking themselves in that authority. How is a four year old to know the difference between a visitor, that is there everyday, and a teacher? Also, how dare they preach to children without parental consent?! Four year olds cannot appreciate the concept of voluntary participation and if they can, they don't know what they are volunteering for. Promise them a cookie and they will sit through anything. Glory [ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

11-27-2002, 09:42 AM	#8
Bloodroot Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: upstate SC Posts: 20	Just found out last night the church that comes to the elementary school is also the church THE PRINCIPLE goes to. This made the hair on my scrotum stand (this isn't a pretty sight). Also on a side note, has anyone ever heard of the website <a href="http://www.bringyourbible.com?" target="_blank">www.bringyourbible.com</a>? {edited by Toto to fix link - if you don't use the automatic UBB button below, remember to include white space around your link names to avoid confusing UBB} [ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

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