Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nataraja · 10-12-2002, 12:21 PM

Also known as daemons and daimons.
I know a little about them, like that they were mid-road between man and the gods in Greek theology, but I know little else. Does anyone have an idea of where this concept came from, originally, or at least know a little more about it?

hinduwoman · 10-12-2002, 06:21 PM

They were not demons in the understood sense of the term in Greek mythology --- that much I know.
More like spirits who helped or hindered men.

Nataraja · 10-12-2002, 08:02 PM

Yesssss.
Do you suppose that this is exactly where the demons of Abramic mythology came from? In Christian tradition, demons and angels sometimes are represented as familiar spirits, such as guardian angels and demon possession. The demons of Greek and pagan theology are similar in that they were sometimes thought to take on the inclinations of the gods they served. The idea of demons as ex-angels really seems very reminiscent of this. As I see it, Christians have two or more gods, one or two, sometimes three, of which they worship and at least one that works against him/them. Indeed, very special men were sometimes elevated to this demigod status in Pagan/Greek theology, just as in Christian tradition. Interesting.

Greg2003 · 10-12-2002, 08:13 PM

The concept of demons and angels comes from Zoroastrianism. See the thread on this subject below. Judaism and Christianity are essentially derivations of Zoroastrianism. Why is god associated with light and satan with darkness? All of the major concepts of these religions are derived from Zoroastrianism.

Hinduthvaite · 10-13-2002, 04:12 AM

Demons in Zorastrian religions are supposed to be Vedic Devas. The association of negative forces with this term happens with the split that monotheism of the ancient Iranian religion. Interestingly the inversion (from beneficient deva to evil demon/devil) is retained in all west-ward Indo-European languages, it does not happen in Indian languages (Sanskrit/Hindi/Tamil) In Tamil Gods are Thevars/Thevans. Even a martial south Indian caste has the name Thevar. Can this be taken as an evidence of a east-west cultural spread?

S.Aravindan

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Hinduthvaite ]</p>

Sarpedon · 10-13-2002, 02:20 PM

It has been pointed out that the work "demon" comes from the greek, whereas "devil" comes from the Persian (and ultimately the Sanskrit, see Zoroastrian thread) It is unclear when the two began to mean the same thing. Most likely early christians living in greece (which is where christianity was really born)abhorred the worship of the familiar spirits (daemons to the greeks, genii of the romans) and identified them, as with everything not of their own invention, with Satan. So we see that the good gods of the hindus become the devils of the zoros, jews and christians (and muslims) and the same thing happens to the helpful, bacchus like daemons of the greeks.

gsx1138 · 10-14-2002, 03:27 PM

On a personal note, when I was a christian I often feared the works of Demons. I was sure that I had witnessed actual demons in action through "supernatural" (to me anyway) events. It's funny but since I became Pagan and stopped believing in Demons I have never seen, felt, or experienced anything that I would have described as demonic or evil. Things that make you go hmmm.
Although, I do kind of miss having someone to blame for anything bad happening in my life (ie: the Devil).

Anti-Creedance Front · 10-14-2002, 09:49 PM

I find it funny that ultra-orthodox Christians are the bane of everything paganism, and yet they have no problem picturing angels with wings or showing Satan as a demon with horns and claws. Sounds pretty pagan and far-fetched to me for such a "scientific religion", as they would like to believe it to be. Anyway, I'm off subject. Sorry about that.

Harumi · 10-21-2002, 10:18 AM

From an Asian standpoint, the word demon commonly refers to animals...that is, animals that take the form of humans and do whatever bad thing it is that they do. You can find great examples in the Chinese idea of demons in the epic: Journey to the West.

As a child I was always taught that there can be good demons and bad demons. Then again, in the Chinese vocabulary, demons include such a broad category of mythical creatures (elves, pixies) that that might be the reason why.

10-12-2002, 12:21 PM	#1
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	Demons in non-Abramic religions? Also known as daemons and daimons. I know a little about them, like that they were mid-road between man and the gods in Greek theology, but I know little else. Does anyone have an idea of where this concept came from, originally, or at least know a little more about it?

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10-12-2002, 06:21 PM	#2
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	They were not demons in the understood sense of the term in Greek mythology --- that much I know. More like spirits who helped or hindered men.

10-12-2002, 08:02 PM	#3
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	Yesssss. Do you suppose that this is exactly where the demons of Abramic mythology came from? In Christian tradition, demons and angels sometimes are represented as familiar spirits, such as guardian angels and demon possession. The demons of Greek and pagan theology are similar in that they were sometimes thought to take on the inclinations of the gods they served. The idea of demons as ex-angels really seems very reminiscent of this. As I see it, Christians have two or more gods, one or two, sometimes three, of which they worship and at least one that works against him/them. Indeed, very special men were sometimes elevated to this demigod status in Pagan/Greek theology, just as in Christian tradition. Interesting.

10-12-2002, 08:13 PM	#4
Greg2003 Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Lancaster, PA Posts: 167	The concept of demons and angels comes from Zoroastrianism. See the thread on this subject below. Judaism and Christianity are essentially derivations of Zoroastrianism. Why is god associated with light and satan with darkness? All of the major concepts of these religions are derived from Zoroastrianism.

10-13-2002, 04:12 AM	#5
Hinduthvaite Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Nagercovil Posts: 24	Demons in Zorastrian religions are supposed to be Vedic Devas. The association of negative forces with this term happens with the split that monotheism of the ancient Iranian religion. Interestingly the inversion (from beneficient deva to evil demon/devil) is retained in all west-ward Indo-European languages, it does not happen in Indian languages (Sanskrit/Hindi/Tamil) In Tamil Gods are Thevars/Thevans. Even a martial south Indian caste has the name Thevar. Can this be taken as an evidence of a east-west cultural spread? S.Aravindan [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Hinduthvaite ]</p>

10-13-2002, 02:20 PM	#6
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	It has been pointed out that the work "demon" comes from the greek, whereas "devil" comes from the Persian (and ultimately the Sanskrit, see Zoroastrian thread) It is unclear when the two began to mean the same thing. Most likely early christians living in greece (which is where christianity was really born)abhorred the worship of the familiar spirits (daemons to the greeks, genii of the romans) and identified them, as with everything not of their own invention, with Satan. So we see that the good gods of the hindus become the devils of the zoros, jews and christians (and muslims) and the same thing happens to the helpful, bacchus like daemons of the greeks.

10-14-2002, 03:27 PM	#7
gsx1138 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Bremerton, Washington Posts: 379	On a personal note, when I was a christian I often feared the works of Demons. I was sure that I had witnessed actual demons in action through "supernatural" (to me anyway) events. It's funny but since I became Pagan and stopped believing in Demons I have never seen, felt, or experienced anything that I would have described as demonic or evil. Things that make you go hmmm. Although, I do kind of miss having someone to blame for anything bad happening in my life (ie: the Devil).

10-14-2002, 09:49 PM	#8
Anti-Creedance Front Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 452	I find it funny that ultra-orthodox Christians are the bane of everything paganism, and yet they have no problem picturing angels with wings or showing Satan as a demon with horns and claws. Sounds pretty pagan and far-fetched to me for such a "scientific religion", as they would like to believe it to be. Anyway, I'm off subject. Sorry about that.

10-21-2002, 10:18 AM	#9
Harumi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 3,184	From an Asian standpoint, the word demon commonly refers to animals...that is, animals that take the form of humans and do whatever bad thing it is that they do. You can find great examples in the Chinese idea of demons in the epic: Journey to the West. As a child I was always taught that there can be good demons and bad demons. Then again, in the Chinese vocabulary, demons include such a broad category of mythical creatures (elves, pixies) that that might be the reason why.

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