Aerion

Many atheists argue that theism has caused a lot of harm in the world and I agree. Some atheists even say that theism has caused MORE harm than good. I can't say if the latter is true or not as it's hard to quantify the good that theism brings to those who benefit from what theism has to offer to those who can and do believe in it.

But, I believe that all of the harm that theism brings to the world all boils down to lack of tolerance and respect for those who have different religious views and I categorize atheism as a different religious view. If you look at all of the things that we generally view as evil as perpetrated by the church, mosque or synagogue, then it really all boils down to intolerance.

Yes, I'm saying that religious intolerance is the primary evil of religion and theist or even atheists who are not tolerant and respectful of other theists or atheists and their religious beliefs are in my opinion morally evil people.

pescifish

Here, here, Aerion! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

LordSnooty

Edited because I can't be bothered.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: LordSnooty ]</p>

HelenM

I think this is a helpful observation. While outside input can be helpful - and of course this thread itself consists of x-xian talking to other people about his situation - it can also make things worse. It's very easy to let other people's opinions discourage us and it's wise to be careful how much weight we give to what other people say, who know very little about our situation.

Yes indeed. I believe that having good family days together will powerfully counteract x-xian's wife's fears that "we can't be happy together any more". I hope so, anyway.

take care
Helen

BadBadBad

I read this this weekend, and it keeps coming back to mind. For all of us posting advice for Darren, this girl is the one who needs some help. He doesn't believe the same thing she does, and he doesn't want to go church. What's the big deal. Now all of the sudden, she has no good feelings at all? What is he supposed to say to that? I mean what a rotten thing to say to anyone!

If that's the way she feels, it's sure not much of a basis for working anything out. Why should Darren have to start from that basis to re-establish this relationship all on his own initiative. If that's where he has to start, it doesn't look very promising. I don't think Darren can bring this back himself. She's going to have to show some initiative as well. He's sure not going to buy some flowers and be a nice guy to fix this.

HelenM

I think that's reasonable, but it might be that he is the 'stronger' one of the two of them, meaning that she may be able to respond but it might be hard for her to be the initiator.

And if she's able to respond it may be worth it to him to be the initiator, if that's what it takes to get them through this time.

In fact, I would say that a spouse who takes the attitude "You have to make the first move back towards me" is in effect implying "I am the weaker of the two of us, because I can't initiate, I can only respond". No offense - but that's how it seems to me.

Helen

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

BadBadBad

It seems to me that "The only thing that feels good about hugging you is the warmth from your body" is a far cry from "You have to make the first move back towards me." One person can be the initiator, and they may have to play that role for a while. It's one thing to help someone up after they stumble. It's another altogether to bring them back from the grave. She seems to be going out of her way to make sure he knows thats where things stand right now.

It still kills me that she said that. This may not be a reaction that a majority of christians have towards atheists, but I have certainly gotten this type of reaction before myself. Basically, she seems to have no respect or consideration for him as her husband, her children's father, or even as just a plain person. What a rotten thing to say to anyone! All because he's not a good christian. What a hypocrite!

HelenM

brett I know that conflict in marriage really hurts.

take care
Helen

Rhea

brettc, I think there is a point at which you give up, but to me, it's not so soon (what appears) into the conflict. People say hurtful things when they're hurting. LOVE, (imo) lets that happen, rolls with the punch and remembers that they're hurting, too.

It's when they're _not_ hurting and they say awful things that I call it quits.

That's my line of tolerance. Until then, if we're both hurting, there's still a lot to save. Just my opinion. And x-xian has said through many posts that he _wants_ to save his relationship. So I'm gonna keep offering suggestions on how _he_ can save it, if he still has feelings.

Yeah his wife is being hurtful, but she is clearly hurting, too, and I guess it's no surprise to me that she's acting like it. Can they get through it? I don't know. But I still think it would be immeasurably sad to lose a relationship that you want to save.

Jackalope

I agree that his wife may be talking from her pit of depression. Yes, she probably does need help. Depressed people often say things they never would if they weren't ill. A lot of what is said can be incredibly hurtful, but the depressed person is too sunk in dispair to even notice what they're doing to people around them. Try not to take what she says personally (I know, easier said than done).

My husband has a friend who gets incredibly nasty every time he tries to go off his antidepressants. We now know to do our best to let the nasty words slide past us when he's going through one of those stages. And try and get him some help. It's hard, and the case we're discussing now, even harder.

Try real hard to get her some real medical help.