Freethought & Rationalism Archive

three4jump · 03-20-2002, 11:34 PM

QoS, I wish there were, too. Perhaps in twenty years, when the human genome is better understood, a simple and cheap DNA analysis will tell people whether or not they can handle drugs, taking away much of the risk. Until that time, the only advice I feel is morally defensible to dispense to young people considering drugs is: don't do it. The worst that can happen if someone follows my avice is that they might have to work a little harder at dancing or painting or writing or having fun.

Koy, COAS, and others are encouraging people to experiment with drugs and try to use them wisely without abusing them. The worst thing that can happen if someone follows their advice is that some people WILL end up dead, in prison, homeless, or insane. I don't see how that is a morally defensible position.

Pseudonymph · 03-21-2002, 09:13 AM

Three4jump...I am VERY sorry to hear about what happened to your family. Unfortunantly I know this feeling all to well myself. My PARENTS still use drugs...my fucking parents. 47 and 50 years old...doing drugs. What drugs? Pot mostly, yeah you know, that same substance that "dosent do any harm" My dad sat down with me two years ago and cried about how he and my step mom couldnt stop doing it. they had been doing it for years, and it had devolped as sort of a coping mechanism, bad day? pot...fight with the kids? pot... party with friends? pot...

What a lot of people miss when they say that pot isnt addictive is that it may not make your body "chemically dependant" but it does make you psychologically dependant. No anectotes, or stories with that....this is fact. Of course a high must be nice, so why not maintain it. again and again etc.

Drugs destroy many familes people...Dont get pissed at people who dont use drugs just because you havent been affected yet. Hopefully you never will.

three4jump · 03-21-2002, 11:02 AM

SirenSpeak, thanks. It must suck to have to look after your parents when they're supposed to be the ones looking after you. I wish I had some good advice on how to deal with them, but I haven't yet found a way to intervene without causing more problems. The only thing I can say is that I try to let people know that I am opposed to their drug use but I am supportive of them in other aspects of their lives. My condemnation applies to usage and not the user, but they often take offense at what they see as judgement of their character, which makes it difficult to have an open relationship. I hope they are appreciative of the fact that you've stayed clean in spite of their example. I know I am always happy to meet a fellow drug-free misfit.

Viti · 03-21-2002, 11:04 AM

There is a risk with any behavior that a particular person may be unable to "handle" it.

Some people become obsessed with porn or sex, some become addicted to alcohol, some people even have disorders/obsessions relating to food, some people succumb to or are negativly affected by life and work stresses that others breeze through.

There is no way that I know of to determine what behaviors are beyond any particular person's ability to cope. Is it possible to assign morality to behaviors that affect individuals differently?

three4jump · 03-21-2002, 11:11 AM

LadyShea, undoubtedly more Americans are ruining their lives with the abuse of food than are ruining their lives with the abuse of drugs. However, we need food, sex, and work in order to live. If LSD, heroin, marijuana, and cocaine had not been discovered, would the world really be a worse place?

Edited to add:
Obviously, morphine and novacaine have been very useful to medicine and dentistry, but referring to only the so-called recreational drugs, can't we entertain ourselves without them?

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: three4jump ]</p>

Danya · 03-21-2002, 11:21 AM

Quote:

. My PARENTS still use drugs...my fucking parents. 47 and 50 years old...doing drugs. What drugs? Pot mostly, yeah you know, that same substance that "dosent do any harm" My dad sat down with me two years ago and cried about how he and my step mom couldnt stop doing it.

My mother is 51 and has been an alcholic and drug user for almost my entire life. It wasn't the pot that made life unbearable. It was the alchohol. Pot is addictive. My mother and one of my friends are so grouchy when they are out of it that I don't even want to talk to them. I have never seen pot destroy a family. Alcohol is 10 times worse.

If drugs were legalized they would be safer. Just saying no is great but it isn't realistic.

Viti · 03-21-2002, 11:28 AM

three4jump...good points. I view it differently though.

There is no need to go on roller coasters, jump out of airplanes, rollerblade, rockclimb or any other number of risky behaviors associated with entertainment or enjoyment. For some people alcohol and drugs are simply something they enjoy experiencing.

three4jump · 03-21-2002, 03:49 PM

I would be in favor of legalizing drugs IF (if, if, if...) that would realy make it safer. It would be good to have some regulation, and it would be nice if users who've lost control could get help without the stigma of being a criminal. However, I would still be opposed to making it legal for anyone under eighteen. When you're under eighteen, for the most part, you don't believe that you could die, you don't believe that you could become a junkie/whore/theif. That is something that happens to other people. With drugs being illegal, it is just as illegal to get a 40-year-old hooked as it is to get a 14-year-old hooked so drug dealers tend to target the younger ones who are less wise to their scams.

If it were legal, perhaps drugs would be supplied by corporations that would be reluctant to target minors with a Joe Camel for pot. If it were legal, perhaps the lifting of the taboo would make it less appealing to teens. Amsterdam doesn't seem to have solved all the problems associated with drug abuse, but they claim it is reducing the negative impacts of drugs. If that is true, then maybe we should legallize certain drugs in the US if they are properly regulated.

Even if drugs were legal, I could still envision many circumstances where it would be immoral to use these legal drugs.

christ-on-a-stick · 03-21-2002, 04:27 PM

Quote:

And so, COAS, you're saying that my brother set out with the intention of abusing drugs and he planned on destroying his life and disrupting his family, right? If he had just been smart and learned how to USE drugs instead of abuse them, then his unknown genetic predisposition to schizophrenia would have somehow recognized his intent and not initiated a chemical cascade that left him with a hole in his brain? I see.

Um, if you could point out where I said that??? or anything remotely resembling that???

It's not about being "smart", as there are many highly intelligent people who have done drugs and become addicted, despite their best intentions. And there are probably many, many really stupid people who have tried every drug out there with no regard to safety or information and yet emerged unscathed.

You really lost me there... I never said anything about intent. My point only addressed your refusal to recognize the fact that there IS a difference between use and abuse.

Perhaps I have failed to point out that if ANYONE I know says that they wish not to do drugs/alchohol/WHATEVER because they don't want to take the risk that they might become addicted, etc., I have/would NEVER say "no, really, you should try it!" And contrary to another statement you made, I have never "encouraged" anyone to try drugs, just shared my experiences and given my honest opinion. I respect other people's choice if they choose not to take the risks; however, it appears that you cannot to the same and respect other's freedom to make the opposite choice FOR THEMSELVES.

Jobar · 03-21-2002, 07:09 PM

34jump & SirenSpeak, we have a historical model for the advantages of legalizing drugs that are at present illegal. When Prohibition was repealed, the number of deaths from impurities in alcoholic beverages and the number of deaths resulting from criminal wars over turf both went down. I am quite sure both these things would happen if we ceased the 'Drug War' and simply regulated them as alcohol is now.

As far as marijuana goes, I can state from personal experience that it is not in itself addictive, as is say opium or nicotine. I smoked like a chimney (pot only, no tobacco) from age 20 to about age 30, when my use started declining. I found that being high all the time was simply boring! Nowadays I smoke it socially, but never smoke it alone except for relieving muscle aches. As has been pointed out, people can become addicted to the damndest things; pot is no exception. But be clear on this- there is not one single case of death from pot overdose in the annals of medicine. Not one. It is less dangerous than aspirin, caffeine, and even sugar!

An aside- SirenSpeak, I once told you that you had a lot to learn about both manners and facts before you would fit in as a regular here. I am pleased to see that you are on track for both! I think that you have done your best to be polite in this thread, and even though I disagree with your opinions in places, you are expressing them, by and large, without giving gratuitous offense. Thumbs up!

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03-20-2002, 11:34 PM	#81
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	QoS, I wish there were, too. Perhaps in twenty years, when the human genome is better understood, a simple and cheap DNA analysis will tell people whether or not they can handle drugs, taking away much of the risk. Until that time, the only advice I feel is morally defensible to dispense to young people considering drugs is: don't do it. The worst that can happen if someone follows my avice is that they might have to work a little harder at dancing or painting or writing or having fun. Koy, COAS, and others are encouraging people to experiment with drugs and try to use them wisely without abusing them. The worst thing that can happen if someone follows their advice is that some people WILL end up dead, in prison, homeless, or insane. I don't see how that is a morally defensible position.

03-21-2002, 09:13 AM	#82
Pseudonymph Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 813	Three4jump...I am VERY sorry to hear about what happened to your family. Unfortunantly I know this feeling all to well myself. My PARENTS still use drugs...my fucking parents. 47 and 50 years old...doing drugs. What drugs? Pot mostly, yeah you know, that same substance that "dosent do any harm" My dad sat down with me two years ago and cried about how he and my step mom couldnt stop doing it. they had been doing it for years, and it had devolped as sort of a coping mechanism, bad day? pot...fight with the kids? pot... party with friends? pot... What a lot of people miss when they say that pot isnt addictive is that it may not make your body "chemically dependant" but it does make you psychologically dependant. No anectotes, or stories with that....this is fact. Of course a high must be nice, so why not maintain it. again and again etc. Drugs destroy many familes people...Dont get pissed at people who dont use drugs just because you havent been affected yet. Hopefully you never will.

03-21-2002, 11:02 AM	#83
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	SirenSpeak, thanks. It must suck to have to look after your parents when they're supposed to be the ones looking after you. I wish I had some good advice on how to deal with them, but I haven't yet found a way to intervene without causing more problems. The only thing I can say is that I try to let people know that I am opposed to their drug use but I am supportive of them in other aspects of their lives. My condemnation applies to usage and not the user, but they often take offense at what they see as judgement of their character, which makes it difficult to have an open relationship. I hope they are appreciative of the fact that you've stayed clean in spite of their example. I know I am always happy to meet a fellow drug-free misfit.

03-21-2002, 11:04 AM	#84
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	There is a risk with any behavior that a particular person may be unable to "handle" it. Some people become obsessed with porn or sex, some become addicted to alcohol, some people even have disorders/obsessions relating to food, some people succumb to or are negativly affected by life and work stresses that others breeze through. There is no way that I know of to determine what behaviors are beyond any particular person's ability to cope. Is it possible to assign morality to behaviors that affect individuals differently?

03-21-2002, 11:11 AM	#85
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	LadyShea, undoubtedly more Americans are ruining their lives with the abuse of food than are ruining their lives with the abuse of drugs. However, we need food, sex, and work in order to live. If LSD, heroin, marijuana, and cocaine had not been discovered, would the world really be a worse place? Edited to add: Obviously, morphine and novacaine have been very useful to medicine and dentistry, but referring to only the so-called recreational drugs, can't we entertain ourselves without them? [ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: three4jump ]</p>

03-21-2002, 11:28 AM	#87
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	three4jump...good points. I view it differently though. There is no need to go on roller coasters, jump out of airplanes, rollerblade, rockclimb or any other number of risky behaviors associated with entertainment or enjoyment. For some people alcohol and drugs are simply something they enjoy experiencing.

03-21-2002, 03:49 PM	#88
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	I would be in favor of legalizing drugs IF (if, if, if...) that would realy make it safer. It would be good to have some regulation, and it would be nice if users who've lost control could get help without the stigma of being a criminal. However, I would still be opposed to making it legal for anyone under eighteen. When you're under eighteen, for the most part, you don't believe that you could die, you don't believe that you could become a junkie/whore/theif. That is something that happens to other people. With drugs being illegal, it is just as illegal to get a 40-year-old hooked as it is to get a 14-year-old hooked so drug dealers tend to target the younger ones who are less wise to their scams. If it were legal, perhaps drugs would be supplied by corporations that would be reluctant to target minors with a Joe Camel for pot. If it were legal, perhaps the lifting of the taboo would make it less appealing to teens. Amsterdam doesn't seem to have solved all the problems associated with drug abuse, but they claim it is reducing the negative impacts of drugs. If that is true, then maybe we should legallize certain drugs in the US if they are properly regulated. Even if drugs were legal, I could still envision many circumstances where it would be immoral to use these legal drugs.

03-21-2002, 07:09 PM	#90
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	34jump & SirenSpeak, we have a historical model for the advantages of legalizing drugs that are at present illegal. When Prohibition was repealed, the number of deaths from impurities in alcoholic beverages and the number of deaths resulting from criminal wars over turf both went down. I am quite sure both these things would happen if we ceased the 'Drug War' and simply regulated them as alcohol is now. As far as marijuana goes, I can state from personal experience that it is not in itself addictive, as is say opium or nicotine. I smoked like a chimney (pot only, no tobacco) from age 20 to about age 30, when my use started declining. I found that being high all the time was simply boring! Nowadays I smoke it socially, but never smoke it alone except for relieving muscle aches. As has been pointed out, people can become addicted to the damndest things; pot is no exception. But be clear on this- there is not one single case of death from pot overdose in the annals of medicine. Not one. It is less dangerous than aspirin, caffeine, and even sugar! An aside- SirenSpeak, I once told you that you had a lot to learn about both manners and facts before you would fit in as a regular here. I am pleased to see that you are on track for both! I think that you have done your best to be polite in this thread, and even though I disagree with your opinions in places, you are expressing them, by and large, without giving gratuitous offense. Thumbs up!

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