Sabine Grant

Hearing voices and any kinds of voices is part of the desillusional aspect of an acute psychosis. Visual hallucinations can also occur. In my mother's case even tactile ( where she even falls " feeling" someone pushing her). Those are symptoms of a mental disorder. They happen with or without the concept of God in someone's mind.
Are you familiar with dementia ? COPD patients for example can exhibit signs of desillusional symptoms as their brain is O2 deprived. There is a physical cause to those symptoms. One of my patients regulary mentions her upstairs neighbors who make too much noise at night with their foot steps.. the sweet old woman lives in a trailor.
Does that answer your questions which seem to want to point that the concept of God is what induces such mental disorders?

BadBadBad

Sabine, you and I would use the same words to describe someone who murders there children. Obviously, no sane person can understand that kind of horrific act. My position is consistent. If you hear voices in your head. You listen to them, and you even consider murdering your child, or anyone else, you're definitely whacko.

You're position is hopelessly inconsistent. You believe God exists. You believe God is omnipotent, and can and has talked to people in person, not to be limited by some misconceived documents written by mere man. A God that can and has asked for the murder and sacrifrice of children. Yet, you flippantly discount a miracle has happened. You immediately discount that these murders serve God's explicit and directly commanded purpose. You immediately resort to the logic of atheists, scientests, and doctors to evaluate this supernatural claim. I'm just having a little difficulty understanding that.

Sabine Grant

I hope you realize that your illustration does not necessarly apply to church life... unless you consider that any ordered minister of any denomination happens to be an individual who does not have some sort of basic general education to evaluate that he may be dealing with someone who needs some serious counseling. To the exception of cultic groups which are led by unstable individuals, you will not find a minister in a mainstream christian denomination who will not be concerned about the mental state of this member in his church.
Are you aware that churches have codes of discipline for their members? that most ministers are trained to provide counseling? ( especialy military chaplains). I wonder....

BadBadBad

I'm not pointing out, even in the slightest, that God induces mental disorders. I'm satiring the christian positon. God doesn't exist. Therefore, it's easy for me to conclude that a person who hears God voices and subsequently murders their children is whacko pure and simple.

So, should we then apply your mental health analysis to the characters in the Bible? Paul? Abraham? Moses? Jesus? Even Adam and Eve? The authors that came up with these stories? Was all this inspiration really just a matter of dementia? Are you familiar with mass dementia? I think the medical term we're looking for here is Christianity.

Sabine Grant

I think your difficulty resides in the obvious fact by now that you are attributing to me thoughts I do not have... this " you" this and " you " that are rather demonstrative of your ongoing assumptions.

I also believe that you may not be aware of the actual medical definition of various mental disorders. So I am still awaiting for the definition I asked so we may insure we agree as to the medical origine of such mental disorders. And who should our source of reliable information be as far as psychiatric terms ? based on what I have read of your previous posts , you seem to believe that your evaluation that the concept of God is the source of mental disorders is the actual definition of a psychosis. I cannot accept your evaluation. I will however accept it if you can reconcile medical data with your statement.

BadBadBad

I'd question a minister that ruled out direct contact with God in the same way I'm questioning you, regardless of his medical or psychiatric training. If he declared psychosis off hand without trying to determine if a miracle was occurring, I'd want to have a chat with him about a few stories in the Bible.

What if I went into this church and instead of telling the preacher that God wanted me to murder my child, I tell him that God wants me to turn around this church in the model of Jesus Christ? I'm here to tell you that this business of threading the eye of a needle with a camel is easier than a rich man getting to heaven is all true. God came to me and told me your church is an afront to God, and I'm here to lead you in God's path to change it. I've been moved. I've seen visions and angels. God has spoken to me. It's a miracle! Halelujah!

If he were a Baptist minister who went to their convention in 2002, I'd really like to hear what he thought was the root of my problem and what he thinks is the crux of God's solution.

Sabine Grant

You are still evading my attempts to bring you to understand what a mental disorder is and how it affects people. I am talking apples and you pursue oranges. Look... if it pleases you to believe that mental disorders involving desillusional symptoms are related to the concept of God... have it all.
Your examples only pertain to christianity....as your last paragraph shows. What are you trying to prove? you deny having expressed thoughts in this thread for all to read which point to your evaluation that there is correlation between the concept of God and mental disorders... you even asked me what came first... the psychosis or God's voice?
It would have been helpful had you informed yourself on how a psychosis is diagnosed. All that it entitles in terms of dysfunctional human behavior. What symptoms are observed to make that diagnosis. How it is treated.

Sabine Grant

Again.... a diagnosis of a psychosis involves observations of multiple symptoms as well as dysfunctional human behaviors. You keep using that term without having insured me that you are fully aware of what a psychosis is and what symptoms are observed to establish a diagnosis.
Then you also used the term " mass dementia".... can you please provide me with medical information which explore the physical possible causes for a group of people to experience symptoms caused by dementia?

BadBadBad

Look who's turning all scientific on me now? Are you sure you're not an atheist? I've honestly had to go back through all your posts and read your profile. You want me the atheist to reconcile my rhetorical assertions against scientific data? You are kidding right?

So in this thread we have Christian posters who would put the burden of proof on me to show that this could even potentially be God and not medical psychosis. This right after we learn that the burden of proof should be on God himself. Why don't we leave it at that. If God exists, let him prove it.

BadBadBad

I don't believe that mental disorders are related to the concept of God. I don't believe in God. To satire the christian position, I am rhetorically proposing that God did in fact talk to these women. Your first post was to assure us all that oh, no, this doesn't have anything to do with religion. This is mental illness, and on that, we agree. I'm questioning you as a christian on how you can rule out my rhetorical God case, and at the same time not rule out christianity. You're right we're talking apples an oranges, and I have to run. Perhaps we can agree to disagree, and tomorrow, you can answer my questions on free will and predestination in the Huge mistake thread.