Celsus

I'm not too familiar with the minimalists, and Bill Dever tends to get a modicum of respect from me (except in one documentary about Moses which was a farce--although I believe it was edited by the BBC to make Dever sound more gracious to the traditional Judeo-Christian viewpoint), so I'll accept your comments. The vast majority of the Old Testament is post-Exilic: I would accept both D and P (over the traditional ascription of D to Josiah's court--which isn't an obscure position unless Blenkinsopp, Whybray, et al. are to be bunched with the minimalists), the final redaction of the Deuteronomic History, Wisdom Literature (Hellenistic to boot), and the obvious ones like Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah. Post-Exilic work does not mean that the history in the texts can't be seen as vaguely plausible. Besides the only definite pre-Exilic works are some of the minor prophets (Hosea, Amos, etc.), so I don't see what the problem is.

As for archaeological finds, their argument is basically based on the argument from absence, so sets itself up to be refuted. The good thing, however, is to prevent overenthusiastic scholars from claiming too much in their publications. I think the insults slinging between Dever and the Minimalists is stupid and counterproductive, and I don't think it's worth dwelling too much on it. Much better is to remember the dangers of extrapolating too much out of archaeological discoveries.

Joel

lpetrich

For the putatively older parts, that is likely to be the case, but even those parts could have insertions from later times.

Thus, the Law of Moses contains detailed specification of temple gear that is more suited for a settled population than for some nomads wandering around in a desert.

Also, in the historical books, Sabbath observance is a low priority before the Babylonian Exile, but a high priority after it. This suggests that commands of Sabbath observance had been back-projected onto Moses, that great lawgiver.

The earlier books of the Bible contain several other anachronisms of that nature. Much of Genesis describes the adventures of the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.) and their matriarchs (Sarah, Rebekah, etc.). But though these adventures are set to before the stay in Egypt and the Exodus, there are some anachronisms, like them having herds of camels carrying luxury goods -- something that became common only much later.

Bits and pieces of remembered history may well be present, however. The Ten Plagues of Egypt have been linked to the massive Krakatoa-like eruption of the volcano Thera in the Aegean; at least all but the killing of the firstborn.

Also, Sodom and Gomorrah may have been some real cities built near seeping oil deposits -- cities that once caught fire in spectacular fashion. This would be distantly remembered and turned into a parable of wicked people getting what they deserve.

There is also the interesting occurrence of the priest Hilkiah finding the "book of the Law" in the Jerusalem Temple (2 Kings 8) as it was being renovated. Abook which specified that worship is to be centralized at that structure, something also specified in the Book of Deuteronomy but not in Exodus, Leviticus, or Numbers.

Seems rather convenient, doesn't it?

Finally, the "prophetic" Book of Daniel was likely composed during Hellenistic times, when the eastern Mediterranean was ruled by Alexander the Great's generals and their successors. However, it was set some centuries earlier, which makes it seem prophetic.

Roland

Magus 55-

History is replete with people dying for a foolish cause (think Jim Jones).

That's hardly on the same level as having us believe certain people lived for almost a thousand years.

Viti

The BBC article doesn't state that Sodom and Gomorrah have actually been found and identified, only that they could be in the Dead Sea. The article uses the word 'may' a lot...no assertions.

leonarde

Right. And I never claimed otherwise. So why didn't you observe that only SOME of the links could be called "biased". You asked for "peer-reviewed" sources but if any of THEM show up they will be qualified with "may" and "perhaps", and "could". Why do you ask for a dogmatically held characterization of the problem of the historicity of the two cities and SIMULTANEOUSLY reject the very (religious) sources which are most likely to give such a characterization????

Cheers!

Viti

My apologies leonarde, I was projecting Magus55's assertion "Sodom and Gomorrah have been found" onto your posts. I have re-read your links without this stuck in my head...thank you for the information, quite interesting reading.

Magus55

Well, ruins in the spot where Sodom and Gomorrah were have been found, with ash and burn marks on the roofs, with people trapped and burned inside. I see strong evidence for that being the actual place in the Bible. Evolutionists make the assertion that since we are similar to Apes, we must be related. If you can stretch that with no conclusive evidence, i believe we can logically conclude that those ruins archaeologists found were Sodom and Gomorrah, destroyed by fire raining from the sky .

Viti

Magus, I have asked you to provide links or citations about this find, preferably from a peer-reviewed source...I can't find anything. I am not saying it's not true, I am asking you to share this so we can all view the evidence. That's how debate/discussion works...you make an assertion and provide acceptable documentation, then we all learn...see?

mike_decock

The bible doesn't give a "spot", just a general region where Sodom and Gomorrah could have been if they really existed.

None of the archaeological resources I have seen have provided any evidence of "burn marks on the roofs" or "people trapped and burned inside". Please provide some sources for this assertion.

It's may be a "logical" conclusion that those ruins are S&G, but that conclusion is based on a few rickety assumptions.

Even if those burned cities are the biblical S&G, the archaeological evidence does not prove that it was destroyed by "fire raining from the sky". That region has a lot of earthquakes and volcanic activity, both of which would lead to city-destroying fires.

-Mike...

Jayhawker Soule

You might also enjoy Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times by Donald B. Redford.