Jobar

Originally posted by Amos:


No-no without God hell could not be conceived to exist because heaven and hell are opposites and both must exist to make the other known.

You know, Amos, sometimes I think you are actually a mystic, and although we use different terminology, you and I are coming from the same place.

Hell is to have seen [only] the face of God while heaven is to have met God face to face.

Eternity ends with our physical death.

Hell is not of God but religious perversion. Spiritual fornication gets you to hell in a hurry (Songs 2:7 "Do not arouse Love (capital L) before its own time").

Then again, sometimes I think you are coming from Paisley, the Polka-dot Planet.


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Amos

Don't be confused Jobar. They are just simple arguments.

The Bible is clear that "no one shall see the face on God and live" while "all will be made clear when we meet face to face." The difference between these two is the distinction between heaven and hell.

In Rev.13 the first beast was born of God (Jn.1:13) and came out of the [celestial] sea. The 42 months is what we call purgatory.

The second beast came out of the [old] earth (carnal desire from Jn.1:13) and was what we call protestant today because it keeps pointing at the first beast that came out of the sea.

If you want more elaboration I can give you that.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Marcion

Amos,

This is a description of hell, but it does not answer the fundamental question what justifies this eternal suffering?

The typical answer I have seen is to sort of shrug and say "well, this is the way it is, it's not God's fault."

That's precisely the point, it is god’s fault. He set up the rules of the game and he is responsible for them.

I would also say that the "absence from god" argument about hell is clearly false. We do not experience hell right now, and we are not in the presence of god, so absence from the presence of god is clearly not hell.

Also I am talking about the "eternal torture" hell described in the bible; this is not the separation from god we experience every day. And if seeing god is causing the problem then the answer is simple, god could avoid torturing people by not showing his face.

It worked with Moses

Amos

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No it is not Gods fault at all and he had nothing to do with the rules of the game. Religion is the game and religion itself is a means to the end and the end is heaven to make religion redundant after we get to heaven. Don't forget here that heaven is a state of mind (the mind of Christ in Christendom).

Only religious perversion is the cause of hell because the mysterey of faith contains the second coming of Christ in our own life. But I hold that absense from God is cold and therefore not hell. Partial knowledge of God is hell and full knowledge of god is heaven.

Well, if we can experience heaven right now, and further, if heaven ends with our second death (which is the death of the body), hell must also be experienced now and must also end with our second death. Eternal life is fo rthe living and not for the death.

God does not willingly show his face but certain kinds of trickery can cause this to happen. It was called witchcraft at one time and is explained in Rev.14:6-12.

More on this later.

Amos

Hello Marcion

When you say “we do not experience hell right now, and we are not in the presence of god, so absence from the presence of god is clearly not hell you are telling me that you are not born again because born again people will readily admit-- if not boast-- about the fact that they do experience God in a special way. Yes they are tormented and have no rest by day or by night and often see this as mortification towards their riches in heaven.

From the above follows that cold is not born again. I should add here that there are two ways in which we can be born again. From Jn.1:13 “[those] who were begotten not by blood, nor by carnal desire, nor by man’s willing it, but by God. The “but” here distinguishes between rebirth from God (often against our own will as per Jn.21:18) and the other one is rebirth from our human will (we do the knocking).

The critical component of rebirth from God is the Annunciation and the subsequent veneration of the woman (Mary) who was behind it all. The woman (Mary in Catholicism) who will meet us at the gates of purgatory indicates that an identity shift has taken place. This is an archetypal truth and is also true in Buddhism, for example, which you may know from comparative mythology.

So the difference between heaven and hell is from where we identify with God. If we remain human we will be the second beast that emerged from the earth (Rev.13:11) and if we become [son of ] man we will be the first beast that emerged from the sea and thus enter heaven after 42 months or less.

Vampyroteuthis

Have you ever read Memnoch the Devil by Anne Rice????

Aimee

Kantian

Bar none the personal favorite of the Vampire series of mine- probably because the revamped theological ramifications that Rice suggested was entertaining to a degree i could appreciate the aesthetics of Christianity.

~Transcendentalist~

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Immanuel Kant ]</p>

Marcion

Amos,

Again, the central issue of this thread is how Christian hell can justified. I have heard explanations about what hell is, and what it is not, and who will be there, what temperature it will be, but I have heard zero justifications in this thread for How god is justified in torturing someone for all eternity, and how you are justified in worshiping such a god.

The closest thing I have heard to a justification is the argument that it's not really god's fault, this eternal torture is a natural consequence of deprivation of god's presence.

basically, it's "beyond his control", he'd probably like to help, but "what can you do"?

In Christian theology, this is clearly not the case, as it denies:
1) God is the creator of the universe and everything in it.
2) God is all powerful

unfortunately, I feel like I am arguing against myself in this thread, because the central question how can god's torture of the majority of humanity for all eternity be justified has not been answered.

wade-w

That's because there is no possible justification for them doctrine of salvation. At least, not if you assume a benevolent god.

Amos

Marcion, if you feel that you are arguing against yourself you should do some careful reading because I have stated that God has nothing to do with heaven and hell because heaven and hell are religion specific (mythology specific). If God was the judge here there would also be Buddhists in heaven and they do not even want to go there because they have their own desired end.

It is religion and religion only that can send us to heaven or to hell. God just "is" and our relationship with God will determine our destiny and religion is aimed to enhance the right condition within humans to become one with God and so preside over heaven while on earth (be seated at his right hand and reign with God while we are alive here on earth).

From the above follows that there is no Christian hell but hell is only for wannebe Christians or small c christians. In fact, there is no Christian theology because Christians have the mind of God and do not have to study Theos. MacBeth was such a christian theologian because he also "wanted to be king hereafter" and went to hell instead (notice the agony in his life and committed suicide to end it).

So let me tell you who goes to hell.

First of all, if heaven and hell are religion specific people without religion or without religious tradition will never go to either heaven or hell.

The aim of religion is to enhance metamorphosis in humans and a successfull metamorphosis will land us in heaven. If this is not done properly it will land us in hell and so, unless we belong to the right religion we would have been much better off without religion.

Heaven is when we have completed metamorphosis and hell is when we have prematurily forged our own metamorphosis. Prior to metamorphosis humans are like caterpillars and seek power, wealth and beauty to enhance our stature in society as rational animals. Sooner or later the time comes that we have our fill of worldly richess and the question is prompted "what is our purpose here on earth?" This is the time it can be said that we spin a cocoon (involutional melancholia) and a premature awakening of this new identity (a butterfly with caterpillars) will send us to hell. We'd be like a butterfly without wings and will crash for the rest of life (or burn daily scriptures to stay aloft).

Now please tell me, how can God have anything to do with this if in fact our God identity has been fornicated by our impatient human nature upon the cunning persuasion of a marauding evangelist?