Marcion

I have recently been ruminating on the idea of hell, and have come to believe that hell is the strongest argument against the idea of a Christian god. This is obviously not original, but I have not seen this issue discussed here in detail before.

I am not arguing that hell does not exist, rather that if it does, it clearly means that god is not loving, but in fact the personification of all that is evil.

I would argue that to molest a child, or to kill or rape is pretty bad, but they are not even remotely comparable to the transcendent evil that would be required to torture billions of people for all eternity.

I would make the claim that whatever these people have done, no one deserves to be tortured for all eternity, and such an act is one of horrendous, barbaric evil.

As the creator of the universe God is clearly responsible for creating hell, he is the lawgiver, and he is the one that determines and metes out punishment.

The more I think about this, the more I stand in awe and perhaps a little bit of dread of anyone that would worship a god that inflicts eternal suffering on the majority of his children.

Perhaps too, this strikes me because it is not a technical epistemological point upon which so many religious debates seem to hinge; this issue strikes me as so viscerally, intuitively obviously, evil that I would be interested in hearing from anyone who believes in the biblical idea of hell and how they can accept the moral consequences of such a doctrine.

I apologize for the overheated rhetoric, but this is an argument about morality, and I wonder how many fundamental Christians really take the idea of hell seriously.

ChrisJGQ

I agree. Hell is an idea so vicious it cannot be comprehended. Hitler does not 'deserve' hell. 1000 times Hitler would not deserve eternal, unbearable pain.

Just as I would save even an enemy from a fate such as that, God, if He was real, would save non believers if he was truly benevolent.

wade-w

Yes, I have always thought that it is impossible to reconcile an omnibenevolent god with the doctrine of salvation. The idea that a wise and loving god would torture anyone for eternity for not groveling before him is ludicrous.

ManM

Marcion,
Can you even conceive of a world where everyone is happy?

ChrisJGQ

There's a difference between making everyone happy and eternally torturing those who use what you gave them. (brains)

Hobbs

From the way you ask this question ("can you even conceive ..."), it sounds as if you think it would be not just difficult but impossible to do. If I understand you correctly, I have to ask why in the world you think there would be any difficulty in conceiving of a world where everyone is happy? If I have misread you and you are pointing out that it is obvious that we can conceive of a world in which everyone is happy (it is certainly easy for me to conceive), then I have to ask what's the point of your question?

southernhybrid

From the time I was a child in my fundy home, I occassionally brought up this issue with my father. I would ask him just how could a loving god cast so many of his children into such a place as hell. I would ask him why god wasn't more interested in the good works when making the hell/heaven decision. My father seemed saddened about the hell thing, but he would tell me the usual "We just don't understand, but god does."

I think that many fundy Xians do believe in the literal hell but I don't think most of them
actually give it that much thought. I think most of them are like my mother, who always refused to discuss such things with me. She didn't like to think too much about her religion and it made her very emotionally upset when she was questioned about it.

The nicer fundy Xians think that only god can judge who will enter heaven and then they imagine that god will put very few people in hell. The mean-spirited Xians like to relish in the thought that all atheists and non-Xians will burn in hell. Those are the scary ones. If not scary, at least repugnant.

A lot of the more liberal and moderate Xians, which I belief actually represent the mainstream, think of hell and heaven as allegorical in nature. They may believe in an afterlife but they seem to think, that just like this life it will be what you make it. That is why, I think so many people can accept the Xian god. They don't take him literally, and they don't take the Bible stories as literal ones.

I agree Marcion, that if such a god existed as the one in the Bible and if his threats of hell were to be taken literally, then he would be the most horrible monster of all time. Of course, I know there is no such boogie man as the Biblical god so his rays can't harm me.

Hobbs

There are some Christians who claim that we do get a second chance after death, and that God's forgiveness extends beyond the grave and into hell for those who are truly repentant. Thus, only those who continue to stubbornly rebel against God will remain in hell, and even then only for as long as they remain rebellious (thought that could be for eternity, but even in that case it would be because of the continued rebellion).

Now, if God truly is perfectly good (and if the real God [assuming for the sake of argument that there is a real God] is anything like what Yahweh of the OT is described as being, then I can't see how anyone can conclude that he is anywhere near perfectly good), then rebellion against such a god would be evil. Then, if God cannot allow evil in his presence, and if hell is a natural and unavoidable consequence of being out of God's presence, and if God continues, for all eternity, to allow those rebels to repent and return to his presence, then hell doesn't necessarily seem to be too much of a problem.

But that's not what most Christians believe. Nor is there any evidence that it is the case.

ManM

Hobbs,
Conflicting desires... Hatred... Bigotry... I think there are quite a few things that would make one perfect world impossible. The point is that I don't believe heaven and hell exist from God's point of view. I would fully expect a good God to place us all in paradise in the next life. But I also expect that paradise might be hell for some folks.

Lord Asriel

I guess this raises the question of whether God is, in fact, the bad guy, and the devil is the good guy - he's just losing the publicity war.

It makes a kind of sense - if God is evil, it would explain why he sets up an impossible ideal of goodness for us to live up to. Thereby ensuring that we spend our earthly life tormenting ourselves for being unworthy, and he still gets to consign us to hell at the end.

The Devil, realising man's fallible nature and filled with compassion for his plight, endevours to move us away from this tyrant and relish our earthly life.

Has anyone ever tried this line of argument?