Erica

Is the disorder of the universe increasing or decreasing?
Please don't flame me, and accuse me of being a "troll" (I'm getting tired of it ) I just wanted to know your take on it.
Thanks.

Kosh

Both.

GunnerJ

Define "order" and "disorder."

Blu

Erica,

It all depends on what you view as being disorder. I personally believe the Universe has an intelligence that human consciousness has yet to define or understand. Look at the Universe. Look at the uninhabited planets. The sun, the way the solar system works. Look at the fact there are living creates on one of these planets. I see a design there.

I think human beings create the idea of "chaos" or disorder.

What do you think?

Sincerely,
Blu

Valentine Pontifex

"He's a Vorlon all right!"
- Susan Ivanova, "Walkabout"

Seriously,

Entropy of the whole universe is increasing. Though entropy is commonly called "disorder" that is more of an analogy since there is not a one-to-one correspondence with what humans call "disorder."

Interesting tidbit: even if we make a disorder=entropy identity, the amount of order in the universe can still increase over time. This is a consequence of the expansion of the universe. At the start of the Big Bang the universe was at maximum possible entropy. But because the universe is expanding its capacity for entropy increases as well.

Kosh

YOu never did tell me where Lord Valentine
came from. Battlestar Galactica?

nogods4me

PMFJI

I hope I am not revealing a secret here LordValentine.
Lord Valentine is a character from the Majipoor (sp?) books by Robert Silverberg, Lord Valentine's Castle, Valentine Ponifex, and The Majipoor (sp?P Chronicles are the ones that come to mind, great books, left too long on the shelf, I think I shall have to give them a re-read.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: nogods4me ]</p>

Erica

Kosh, how can it be both?
Um...
"Order" = A condition of methodical or prescribed arrangement among component parts so that proper functioning or appearance is achieved; absence of confusion
"Disorder" = A lack of order or regular arrangement; confusion.
Which planet would that be?
I'm not sure; I sure don't think there's any living creatures on other planets though...
LordValentine, how would you define "entropy"?
Then why hasn't it?

[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Erica ]</p>

Kosh

Non-exclusivity.

It has.

Valentine Pontifex

As our Vorlon friend has alread said, it has.

Lets for purposes of argument define order as the opposite of entropy. There are problems with defining it this way, but we will ignore them.

At the start of the big bang (the so called Planck time) the universe was at maximum entropy
and there was no order. The second law forbids the universe's entropy from ever going down so it would seen to be a problem. However, the
universe is expanding and thus the capacity of
the universe for entropy is increasing and increasing far faster than entropy itself. Under this circumstances order can also increase though obviously not as fast as entropy. And indeed there is order in the universe, matter is not uniformly distributed as it would be if entropy totally ruled.

Bear in mind that this is something that happens on cosmic scales. Since the expansion of the universe is neglectable at local scales (i.e. within our Galaxy) it will not help increase order. To increase order in any given place can be accomplished someplace else pays the price. You can decrease entropy at A so long as A's suroundings has its entropy increased in such a way that the total entropy of A and its suroundings goes up.

Think of it as increasing order in your house by decreasing it at your local garbage dump.