ElectEngr

I found out that Phillip Johnson will be on "Pyllis Schlafly Live" on Nov 16.

The pretense is "Asking the Right Questions" on origins.

For more info, go to <a href="http://www.eagleforum.org/radio/2002/nov2002/nov2002.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.eagleforum.org/radio/2002/nov2002/nov2002.shtml</a>

Let's see if we can flood the switchboard.

Later,
ElectEngr

theyeti

This doesn't appear to be a debate at all. It's just Johnson spewing his usual cadre of lies, hate, and hypocrisy.

I'm not sure who I find more irritating, Johnson or Schlafly. Here's the banner for Schlafly's page:

Which world would that be? FAIRY WORLD?

theyeti

GreggLD1

Here's how I'd want my conversation with Philip to go:

"Hi Phil. I have a few questions. First, do you consider yourself a patriot?"

"Um, yes, I do."

"OK. And second, do you think bearing false witness is wrong?"

"Of course, the Bible says so."

"OK. Here's my last question. How is teaching American schoolchildren ID, a lie disguised as science, supposed to make America a stronger and more godly nation?"

Gregg

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: GreggLD1 ]</p>

Zira_C

Here are two I’d be interested in seeing him answer.
-How is a preternatural intelligence working through preternatural processes to create man, not religion?
-Do you think there will be a backlash against ID for no other reason than people resent you insulting their intelligence?

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Zira_C ]</p>

GeoTheo

I think you are being ridiculous and overly emotional. Are you able to comprehend the concept that some people disagree on things based on ideological differences? There is no reason to believe Johnson is a proponent of I.D. based on hate or malice or that he is lying. You sound just like a fundamentalist that says people believe in evolution because they serve Satan and want to destroy America by promoting immorality.

pz

If it's not hate or malice, it's goddamned deep stupidity. I've seen Johnson talk, and it was two hours of non-stop lying. How else do you interpret it when a man gets up and lectures people about what goes on in biology classrooms and between biologists, and not one word bears even the foggiest relationship to reality?

If I was to openly declare to a few hundred people in a meeting that you, GeoTheo, were professionally incompetent, that you spent your days plotting to hide the truth about your activities at work, and that you were part of a global cabal working for Satan to corrupt little children, what would you think? Would you stand up for me and say I'm just an honest guy, working for the truth?

GeoTheo

He's a law professor, not a biologist, so ignorance could play a part. He also is a conservative that teaches within liberal academia. I think he thinks of the evolution/creation/ID debate along the same lines as competing social and political ideologies.I think he's wrong, but that's how he looks at it.
There are some outspoken atheists that use this debate as a bully pulpit for atheism. Johnson is wrong to say this is the case with the majority of the scientific community. But he looks at it along those lines. He disbelieves in evolution for ideological reasons and so assumes people who accept evolution do so for ideological reasons as well. I really do think he actually looks at it that way so he is not lying. I myself have wondered if these people actually gain scientific understanding as they debate and prepare for debates and start to see the evidence for what it is, but that really does take an actual paradigm shift that involves seeing the world in a different way. He thinks he is preserving Western Judeo-Christian culture against factions that want to supplant it with somthing else. So the evolution issue is just a part of that. Anything that reinforces the idea that America is in a culture war, reinforces his position on evolution.
I think the debate has extremely high stakes in his mind. A person such as yourself, who is an actual scientist, might not be able to see that.

GeoTheo

I will say this: I actually experienced such a paradigm shift. It was pretty powerful. I was totally convinced of special creation. There was a point where I went from believing in it to rejecting it. It took one instant. But my perspective really changed. Once it changed I could not go back. Then everything started to fit together for me. Before that, I had come close to accepting evolution, but considered how high the stakes were and could not allow my brain to accept it. Foundational beliefs are pretty powerful things. Few people in my experience, really keep them up in the air for very long. Once they are in place they narrow your choices for how you explain things to your self. Philip Johnson, I doubt considers that he is merely engaged in a debate about some abstruse acecademic topic. He has a huge emotional investment. If it was merely a matter of sceintific evidence pointing or not pointing to a particular conclusion, I am sure his behavior would appear quite strange. The only explanation his worldview allows is that people advance the theory of evolution in order to promote materialism and secular humanism.
A big reinforcer is that people who hold to those ideologies such as people that frequent this website, hate his guts. So there probably is an element of truth to his belief. Secular humanists do see ID as a threat to the type of society they would like to see. The problem is that that really has no bearing on biology.

pz

Yes. However, he is a law professor who knows nothing about the conduct of science who falsely declares what biologists do. This is inexcusable.
No, I agree that he believes the stakes are high. What is all too obvious is that he has decided that that justifies lying for his cause.

Do you understand the point? He is a man completely without principle, who will say anything and do anything to destroy his personal boogeyman, science. I don't despise him for having a cause, I despise him for being such an unethical asshole.

GeoTheo

pz,
Do you think people, such as you might encounter on "ART BELL" radio show, that ascribe to bizarre conspiracy theories are "unethical assholes" and are just "lying"? Just because you think somthing is too stupid to believe, doesn't mean everybody thinks it is and are just lying.