Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Bowden · 07-01-2002, 09:39 AM

There's a nice little article on evolution and its profound implications currently posted at the kiosk. That in itself is good reason to recommend it. But one paragraph in particular brought a little grin to my face:

Quote:

Evolution is, in fact, a good illustration of the religious danger of making God an unnecessary hypothesis. We might be tempted to declare that God works through evolution, even if saying this adds nothing to our understanding of biology. But this God is like a Santa Claus to the Christmas of Darwinian evolution. We do not, after learning the ugly truth, insist that Santa Claus is still real, that he is the moving spirit behind the holiday season, and that he works through parents placing gifts under trees.

Yes, even top-flight scientists are shouting it from the rooftops: "God is Santa Claus for adults!"

From "Creationism to Universal Darwinism: Evolution and Religion"
by Taner Edis

<a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=214" target="_blank">http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=214</a>

-Wanderer

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: wide-eyed wanderer ]

Mad Kally · 07-01-2002, 10:20 AM

YAY!!!

Ojuice5001 · 07-01-2002, 01:25 PM

Theism means the belief that the things in the world are governed by the gods or God. If evolution turns out to be one of the things in the world, then it must be and is governed by the gods. I fail to see what we're supposed to be concerned about. The only scientific discovery that would threaten theism is a proof that the gods are responsible for neither the Big Bang nor the random events that occur (the latter, perhaps, by proving that there are no random events). Until that happens, there is no problem.

MadKally · 07-01-2002, 01:54 PM

Ojuice5001 said: If evolution turns out to be one of the things in the world, then it must be and is governed by the gods

sockpuppet says:
If you believe that, you will believe this:

Corwin · 07-01-2002, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001:
Theism means the belief that the things in the world are governed by the gods or God. If evolution turns out to be one of the things in the world, then it must be and is governed by the gods. I fail to see what we're supposed to be concerned about. The only scientific discovery that would threaten theism is a proof that the gods are responsible for neither the Big Bang nor the random events that occur (the latter, perhaps, by proving that there are no random events). Until that happens, there is no problem.

Yup. As long as there isn't a level of conclusive proof that never happens in real science, nothing can threaten ancient delusions.

As long as real science exists there will be wiggle room for superstition. Ironic, no?

Veil of Fire · 07-01-2002, 02:07 PM

When I'm at the beach, I try to make sand castles.

Unfortunately, I suck. So they end up as little piles of sand dotting the shoreline.

Now, my presence was not 100% necessary for the creation of sand piles on the beach. Nature can make sand piles on the beach without me.

Does that mean I didn't make any sand piles on the beach, and/or that I don't exist, simply because my existance might be unecessary to explain a phenomena?

Corwin · 07-01-2002, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Veil of Fire:
When I'm at the beach, I try to make sand castles.

Unfortunately, I suck. So they end up as little piles of sand dotting the shoreline.

Now, my presence was not 100% necessary for the creation of sand piles on the beach. Nature can make sand piles on the beach without me.

Does that mean I didn't make any sand piles on the beach, and/or that I don't exist, simply because my existance might be unecessary to explain a phenomena?

Nope. But all too many religious types make the mental leap from 'of course we can't prove 100% that God wasn't behind all of this' to 'well you can't prove it wrong so Goddidit.'

We've proven that God was not required. Occam's Razor implies that while God COULD still have been there, it's far more likely that he/she/it was, in fact, not.

Mad Kally · 07-01-2002, 03:01 PM

Veil of Fire · 07-01-2002, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Occam's Razor implies that while God COULD still have been there, it's far more likely that he/she/it was, in fact, not.

No offense, but Occam's Razor breaks down in many places on the scientific continuum. I doubt you'd have to think very hard to come up with a theory that's not the simplest explanation but is nevertheless the prevailing one in the field. Occam's Razor is a handy investigating tool, not a law in and of itself.

GunnerJ · 07-01-2002, 05:03 PM

Quote:

I doubt you'd have to think very hard to come up with a theory that's not the simplest explanation but is nevertheless the prevailing one in the field.

However, I would have to think very hard to find a prevailing scientific theory that is not only not the simplest explaination, but also does not explain the available evidence.

Occam's Razor != the simplest explaination

Occam's Razor == the simplest explaination that fits the facts.

BTW, what you were hinting at before with your analogy was "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Sorry, but I'm not impressed, even if Dr. Sagan was. The concept of the burden of proof logically requires us to assume absence until evidence of pressence is established.

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07-01-2002, 10:20 AM	#2
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	YAY!!!

07-01-2002, 01:25 PM	#3
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Theism means the belief that the things in the world are governed by the gods or God. If evolution turns out to be one of the things in the world, then it must be and is governed by the gods. I fail to see what we're supposed to be concerned about. The only scientific discovery that would threaten theism is a proof that the gods are responsible for neither the Big Bang nor the random events that occur (the latter, perhaps, by proving that there are no random events). Until that happens, there is no problem.

07-01-2002, 01:54 PM	#4
MadKally Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 433	Ojuice5001 said: If evolution turns out to be one of the things in the world, then it must be and is governed by the gods sockpuppet says: If you believe that, you will believe this:

07-01-2002, 02:07 PM	#6
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	When I'm at the beach, I try to make sand castles. Unfortunately, I suck. So they end up as little piles of sand dotting the shoreline. Now, my presence was not 100% necessary for the creation of sand piles on the beach. Nature can make sand piles on the beach without me. Does that mean I didn't make any sand piles on the beach, and/or that I don't exist, simply because my existance might be unecessary to explain a phenomena?

07-01-2002, 03:01 PM	#8
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764

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