krazytamak

If your friend believes that Satan is pulling his tricks to deceive us all adn that we shouldn't beleive what the world tells us, then ask him: ok fine, but how do you know that the Bible isn't Satan's instrument of deception? He can't use any quotations from the Bible to defend it becaues obvioulsy it would be corrupted by Satan himself. If he says you're being ridiculous, then point out that after Christianity established itself in the 4th century, Christian monotheism has been the motivation for so much torturing and so many millins of deaths of innocent people including kids. Sounds like the Devil's Bible more than God's Bible if you ask me. After this he may stop with the Devil is trying to trick you scare tactics and have a real debate.

Liquidrage

krazy,

don't just stop there.

The old testament is the work of satan too.
Afterall god would never condone slavery or murder children to scare his enemies into submission. That is what satan wants us to believe god is like.

but I know better.
the real god is a fuzzy bunny and just wants us all to be happy.

MOJO-JOJO

Thanks everyone! I think the above summary post by DMB hits my dilemma straight on the head though.

Sojourner553

Mojo-jojo:

I always point out that we have had 2000 years of history to test how religion has affected individuals and societies.

(1) If religion is really true, shouldn’t GOOD people of different cultures and time periods have arrived at the same doctrines? History shows just the opposite. How many sects are there just in Christianity? If God’s will is “absolute” why are there something like 20,000 Christian sects? That’s before you start in with the other religions…

(2) How many times have you seen a person proclaiming they know “God’s will”, when it’s obvious they are talking to themselves (fooling themselves). Nice people have compassionate gods; mean people have authoritative, cruel gods.

(3) Why are something like 95% of people born into the religion of their parents? This points to religion being something we learn as children and carry with us in life.

(4) Good people have honestly struggled to find the “true” religion, for millennium. If they are sincere, it is inconsistent that a good God would punish them for honestly choosing the wrong religion; But it is PERFECTLY consistent if this is a human invention: (priests desiring power, secular authorities encouraging people to “wait” for social justice, etc) "It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated bybolts of lightning." – Calvin

(5) Why is there such evil in the world? Why has so much evil been done in the name of religion? (Inquisitions, wars, pograms, witch trials, slavery, torture)? Why have CONSERVATIVE Christian authorities (who have ruled for most of the millennium) been opposed to much of the progress from the last couple of centuries. Indeed most of the American Founding Fathers were either deists or greatly influenced from the deism from the Enlightenment. See Section V. <a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

(6) Why have literal verses in the Bible been used to oppose much of the progress of science? Why are there discrepancies between biblical texts; why are there discrepancies between science and the bible in the area of astronomy and geology?http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/SCIENCE.TXT

(7) Why are there so many superstitions in the Bible? For example the belief that ALL mental illnesses were DEMONIC in nature, and required exorcism.

(8) If you analyze the stories in the New Testament, it is apparent they are simplistic superstitions.See Section II.
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

(9) Much of the stories of Jesus’ miracles were taken from stories of miracles in other religions – especially the Greek mystery religions. <a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MIRACLE.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MIRACLE.TXT</a>

(10) All the classical philosophies that prove God exists, are merely built on foundations of sand!http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/PHILOSOP.TXT

(11) Why are important morality laws omitted in the Bible – that are today considered basic to any “humane” civilization: The Ten Commandments do not have laws outlawing slavery, torture and child abuse. Look at the history of slavery and cruelty to blacks? The arguments FOR it were based on religion and great opposition to these laws came from Christian fundamentalists/conservatives. (usually not liberals though – if you could find any back then!) This is not a timeperiod issue. The Egyptian Book of the Dead has many humane laws not found in the OT – examples of virtuous living (I like the last one.) I have not caused terror.I have not burned with rageI have never fouled the water.I have not caused shedding of tears. <a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MYSTERY.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MYSTERY.TXT</a>

Also, look at the terrible suffering from witch trials in Salem and Europe that occurred because of superstitious lines like “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” in the OT. As one example. In 1769, John Wesley, founder of Methodism wrote in his JOURNAL: "It is true, likewise, that the English in general, and indeed most of themen of learning in Europe, have given up all accounts of witches andapparitions as mere old wives' fables. I am sorry for it, and I willinglytake this opportunity of entering my solemn protest against this violentcompliment which so many that believe the Bible pay to those who do notbelieve it. I owe them no such service. I take knowledge that theseare at the bottom of the outcry which has been raised, and with suchinsolence spread through the land, in direct opposition, not only tothe Bible, but to the suffrage of the wisest and best of men in allages and nations. They well know (whether Christians know it or not)that the giving up of witchcraft is in effect giving up the Bible."(as quoted by Montague Summers, GEOGRAPHY OF WITCHCRAFT, UniversityBooks, 1970, p 169-70)

(12) If God is omnipotent, if he willed it, everyone would wake up and “know” what was true vs. false (Right now all religious people guess or hopes theirs is THE ONE TRUE RELIGION. The vast MAJORITY of people must be wrong on the EXACT ONE RELIGION to choose, because of the large number of different sects/religions, yes? Shelley summarized this once: "If God has spoken, why is the universe not convinced?

In short, I switched after overwhelming evidence against religion. And I choose truth! As Carl Sagan put it: "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."


Sojourner

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>